Open Source Network

[Wynand]

Unfortunately wifi in CPT doesnt work that way, how far can a hotspot (omni) cover? 300 meters? Our highsites are much further than that on average to our clients.

It works in airports, because it's a closed, and relatively small area. So picking up your laptop @ home to connect to a wug wont work, unless you live NEXT to the highsite.

 

[Hunted]

WUG FTW!!

 

[Grant Petersen]

Unfortunately wifi in CPT doesnt work that way, how far can a hotspot (omni) cover? 300 meters? Our highsites are much further than that on average to our clients.

It works in airports, because it's a closed, and relatively small area. So picking up your laptop @ home to connect to a wug wont work, unless you live NEXT to the highsite.

That's the problem with connecting only to high-sites. One should be able to connect through ANY user on the network.

 

[rellik]

What puts me off about the WUGs is the way it seems like they are the only official WUG and if anyone wants to join they have to get approved. At least thats how CTWUG put it across. I can't just go and take a pc and connect to it I must first join the site and get them to approve me.

What would truly be free and open would be if I could just take PC get it to listen for DHCP and just connect ad hoc where ever I am within the coverage area.

That would be the same as me leaving a ethernet cable out in my road and anyone can plug into it and see whats available on this network.

Secondly, every user that connects to a highsite affects the other users. And with the CTWUG highsites having quite a lot of users on them, a random new user will affect the others for sure.

Thirdly, U might connect to site A, but the other wuggers know that site B is closer. If u go through the right channels, your experience will just be alot better.

Fourthly. We are the guys thats paying for the hardware. And setting up a full anonymouse network with no code of conduct is heading straight for a huge disaster

If thats elitism, well then i'm an elitist.....

 

[protzkrog]

That's the problem with connecting only to high-sites. One should be able to connect through ANY user on the network.

If you buy extra radios and antennas for everyone, we can do that, sure, no problem.

I think you should do some research on wifi protocols, topologies, etc.

 

[Wynand]

Well said. Unfortunately, just "connecing through ANY user" is ompossible with the hardware we use. If we were using Zigbee modules, yes, auto routing, and client+AP mode would be possible, but currently that would mean that we'd have to FORCE all clients that connect to buy routers that can do AP and Client , aka, double the outlay for normal clients.

And by the way, say you DO connect VIA someone, how are you gonna broadcast signal to the next guy? See the problem? We'd need serious capital to do what you want us to do, who is gonna back CTWUG to get there?

Go do a bit more reading, and check the limitations of wug's, and how we operate, you'd realize that what we've managed to do, is actually friggen amazing and we're always looking to expand. Try get a GOOD highsite for zero rand a month, or even, try get a 1000 (since you want signal everywhere)

 

[Wynand]

Same idea me and protz

Read more, realize the limitations that we have to cross everyday.

 

[Grant Petersen]

That would be the same as me leaving a ethernet cable out in my road and anyone can plug into it and see whats available on this network.

Not a bad idea, as long as you've got a good firewall, why not? Essentially that's what every website is doing already.

Secondly, every user that connects to a highsite affects the other users. And with the CTWUG highsites having quite a lot of users on them, a random new user will affect the others for sure.

Yes, but each new member that joins adds to the network.

Thirdly, U might connect to site A, but the other wuggers know that site B is closer. If u go through the right channels, your experience will just be alot better.

Obviously, but if I'm driving around with my laptop it would be nice to just be able to connect to the strongest signal.

Fourthly. We are the guys thats paying for the hardware. And setting up a full anonymouse network with no code of conduct is heading straight for a huge disaster

Everyone pays for their own hardware, so what?

If thats elitism, well then i'm an elitist.....

 

[acidrain]

What puts me off about the WUGs is the way it seems like they are the only official WUG and if anyone wants to join they have to get approved. At least thats how CTWUG put it across. I can't just go and take a pc and connect to it I must first join the site and get them to approve me.

Only official WUG? Clearly you have never heard of a second WUG operating in the cpt area, namely LOEMWUG. So as far as CTWUG being an elitist group is utter bull as CTWUG happily accommodated this second network, in fact we would even go as far as promoting the setup of private mesh networks, cos in the long run, we do this for the community and that's all that matters.

If said private mesh network wanted to peer into the ctwug network, the options put forth ( as discussed when the loem network peered ) would be as follows

• They could either amalgamate into the CTWUG network thereby being part of the ctwug name, yet equipment will still be the responsibility of the former owner, but then the CTWUG admins would then maintain the new sites ( on a software level ) as they are more experienced.

• The network can peer, but remain separated from CTWUG. This decision would just mean that any problems with your network/equipment/software/routing/ip addresses/etc you must deal with and not ask the CTWUG group to sponsor repairs/upgrades

What would truly be free and open would be if I could just take PC get it to listen for DHCP and just connect ad hoc where ever I am within the coverage area.

Well you probably thinking along the technology of how cellphones work. AFAIK not even commercial companies like wisp support this. CTWUG would happily accommodate such a request, provided the person requesting it could somehow find us... say R5 mil to set such a network up

The WUG sites should be providing info on all the different access points and co-ordinate between different groups running their own different networks. For example if some people in some complex somewhere have their own network and wish to add it to the cloud then they shouldnt need permission.

CTWUG does provide that info. http://wind.ctwug.za.net ... easy as pie.

The permissions you referring to is only on a security level. All HS's use a MAC filtering method whereby only MAC addresses added to the highsite can connect. This prevents the network from being abused by random pc's connecting. Our equipment can only support a certain number of users and if, say one interface, gets flooded with 20 randomly connected pc's, then the registered users on that highsite will suffer heavily which is unfair to them. So we not restricting people to join, we just manage them so that everyone can get a nice WUG experience.

 

[acidrain]

Yes, but each new member that joins adds to the network.

The only thing a new user adds is more traffic, which is why we have to manage the people who can/can't connect.

If a highsite is full ( currently being voted on ) then unfortunately no one else can connect to it. As harsh as it may sound, it's an unfortunate reality

 

[acidrain]

Oh and just to give you proof why a fuly open network is not good.

LOEMWUG had run a fully open network for a while, but eventually it was found that a random pc had been dialing illegal accounts through someone's adsl line. The way they knew it was illegal is because telkom called them telling the owner they were stealing someone's bandwidth.

People are untrustworthy when you give them no limits, and LOEM stands as proof of this.

P.s. If you thinking "maybe it was a current user that was doing the hacking" i can assure you it wasn't as I investigated it personally and came from an unknown IP, from an interface that has no known users on

 

[protzkrog]

All this comes down to: Just like the internet is managed and planned, the wugs are managed and planned as well. Everything doesn't just work and fall into place magically.

 

[chubster]

What would truly be free and open would be if I could just take PC get it to listen for DHCP and just connect ad hoc where ever I am within the coverage area.

The WUG sites should be providing info on all the different access points and co-ordinate between different groups running their own different networks. For example if some people in some complex somewhere have their own network and wish to add it to the cloud then they shouldn't need permission.

There are some that allows that kind of networking from their own premises. Again, having the responsibility, would you allow some anonymous guy connect via your wifi and then cause havoc? Do you think the other "WUGGERS" won't mind a bit? So lets say they do trace it to you, they will of course cut you off because you cause more harm than good. Again some kind of restrictions must be enforced. WUGs are just a bit more lenient since the bandwidth is free after all Even Open Source has it's restrictions -> GPL.

 

[protzkrog]

"Yes, but each new member that joins adds to the network."
And that needs to be managed - otherwise you will have a royal stuffup.

"Obviously, but if I'm driving around with my laptop it would be nice to just be able to connect to the strongest signal."
If that was possible, no one would have bought equipment. Wugging isn't coffeeshop hotspot wifi, it's long range, high speed wireless. We have about 400km of backbone links running Pretoria.

"Everyone pays for their own hardware, so what?"
Highsites cost money, about R50k of wifi hardware, cabling, steel, lightning protection and 4 weekends of hard physical labour has gone into the PTAWUG Die Wilgers highsite - see this thread - http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=142292&highlight=wilgers

 

[scruffy]

I like it that you want to teach people skills, but is this only for people who are interested in learning them or are you aiming to expand the network to almost every home?
Isn't there also a fairly extensive hardware installation, plus cabling and climbing on the roof... Wait a second, why am I volunteering my services again? I just got a nice desk job... Must be bored or something.

It does not matter. Those wanting to learn have a great opportunity. You don't really have to learn a lot just to join PTAWUG. What opportunities you use thereafter is your own choice

Installation is not extensive at all! Rating people willing to discover new technologies as "bored" no...
But that is my personal opinion so I would suggest we grant these people their fun and opportunities whilst others keep their desk jobs

 

[Grant Petersen]

"Yes, but each new member that joins adds to the network."
And that needs to be managed - otherwise you will have a royal stuffup.

Bound to be a few bugs in the beginning, thought it was supposed to be a learning experience?

"Obviously, but if I'm driving around with my laptop it would be nice to just be able to connect to the strongest signal."
If that was possible, no one would have bought equipment. Wugging isn't coffeeshop hotspot wifi, it's long range, high speed wireless. We have about 400km of backbone links running Pretoria.

OK, say a Wugger wanted to set up a WUG coffee-shop hotspot which connected to your 400km backbone via one of those kits, would you allow or even possibly encourage such behaviour? What if he wanted to provide both WUG and Internet access in his coffee-shop?

"Everyone pays for their own hardware, so what?"
Highsites cost money, about R50k of wifi hardware, cabling, steel, lightning protection and 4 weekends of hard physical labour has gone into the PTAWUG Die Wilgers highsite - see this thread - http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=142292&highlight=wilgers

I started this thread talking about connecting to my neighbour, I'm certain that can be achieved on a much smaller budget, if say one in 10 neighbours are connected via the kits it will help bridge the gaps. Even if users connecting in this way only get about 56K, they can still chat, VOIP (sort of), and send and receive WUGmail (or whatever you guy's call it. )

 

[protzkrog]

WUGs have been going for 4 years, methodologies have been tried and tested and the best way forward has been chosen.

Providing wug access in a coffeeshop will be commercial behaviour. Grey area. ICASA.

Yes, you can easily connect to your neighbour, get 2 wifi cards.

 

[Grant Petersen]

The only thing a new user adds is more traffic,

Then why even bother posting, or networking for that matter?

 

[Grant Petersen]

Yes, you can easily connect to your neighbour, get 2 wifi cards.

I would have suggested two wireless routers, but your option is even cheaper.

So can I share my WUG connection with him?

 

[Ryder_JHB]

Grant, have you considered the possibility of starting your own neighbourhood wug? Then you can do whatever you like, without having to debate the pros and cons of the existing wugs! You could call it GrantWug, or KempWug or something!