OpenWeb ADSL Feedback Thread (Pt2)

[slvR]

So it happened again and this is the system log entries:

May 16 12:18:54usercritkernel: ADSL link down
May 16 12:18:57usercritkernel: ADSL G.994 training
May 16 12:19:00usercritkernel: ADSL G.992 started
May 16 12:19:03usercritkernel: ADSL G.992 channel analysis
May 16 12:19:08usercritkernel: ADSL G.992 message exchange
May 16 12:19:08usercritkernel: ADSL link up, fast, us=512, ds=4096

ADSL line, ISP or router?

I've experienced this before, check out my thread on the "Dlink 2500U",its the Telkom line being buggered up.

 

[wingnut771]

When was this exactly and what were the exact words?

This still doesn't make sense. I get that this is possible, but why would they sell accounts twice, instead of simply selling twice as many accounts? The later would be simple overselling and would make much more sense to do, if they really had decided to try and rip people off. They don't publish contention ratios remember. Plus, it makes more sense that they buy a lump of capacity, create contention ration brackets and various shaping rule categories and then sell accounts that share it. Sharing of actual single accounts makes no sense.

You keep setting up strawmen and then claiming victory when you successfully attack it. This is wooly thinking.

I agree, it makes no sense! Still doesn't explain why accounts just die a random death and have to get another one. Only OW have this problem so they must be doing something "different" to all the other ISP's out there, what that difference is is anybody's guess

 

[eegee]

@KALSTER
Let me share some of my experience with you. Let me know your thoughts on this.

When I bought my account last year, I logged into http://users.isdsl.net/. I saw that my account had already been logged into and used one day before I had purchased it. This raised my suspicions about the rumours of account sharing. I noted that I was unable to change my simplistic '1122' password thought the CP so I sent a PM to MrBEEP a few days later. Once my password was changed and messaged back to me in plain-text, I monitored the IS user stats. Guess what happened? After the other session timed-out, it did not appear for a few days.

I felt a little bad about having caused someone else to lose Internet connection for a few days. Because I also did not have any performance issues with my account, I let the issue slide. That was until a few months later when the daytime issues started. That's when the troubleshooting started with OW support and I got given various new accounts. I discovered that the IS-based accounts would be heavily shaped from 08:00-17:00 preventing any sort of browsing. On the other hand the MTN-based accounts allowed browsing at all times, but NNTP would not get past 30KB/s in the evenings.

This is when I tried to question what had changed with the shaper. I was lied to by being told that nothing had changed since before I joined. I was told that if I download during the day, my browsing would be shaped. My usage pattern had not changed, but I humoured them and scheduled my downloads for the evening. Needless to say, this had no effect on the crippling daytime shaping. I settled on the tedious task of switching between the IS-based and MTN-based account to be able to browse during the day and download at night.

I should mention that it is quite frustrating waiting 3-5 minutes for the OW support page to load, and then being told that nothing is wrong on when they test the account. Also, there has not been one case where they have found and fixed a problem on an account. The 'solution' has always been to give a new account. At any rate, my solution of using two accounts was cumbersome and eventually the other account stopped working.

I recently decided to do some investigating since I was now on an account with a single session. I shared my account details *gasp* with a friend and uncovered some facts.

• We were both able to connect to the same account. (two concurrent connections allowed)
• When I made two simultaneous connections to the account, my friend would be unable to connect to the account. When we were both connected, I was unable to establish a second connection. (account limited to two concurrent connections)
• When a new connection was made it would immediately display on IS user stats. When a PPPOE connection was disconnected it would immediately disappear from IS user stats. When a router was reset, the session would take +-30min to timeout before it would disappear. This is because the router dis not properly disconnect before resetting. (stats show correct current sessions to within thirty minutes; the locations for the sessions were also pretty close)
• When a new connection was made, followed by a download, followed by a disconnect: the correct usage for that session would be displayed on IS user stats. When a new connection was made, followed by a download, and NOT followed by a disconnect: the correct usage would be displayed after about an hour. (stats show correct usage to within an hour; numbers larger compared to self-maintained stats indicate other session's usage)
• When we downloaded at the same time, we both got full speeds. After about a day, the download speeds reduced dramatically and it seems that this was regardless of how much the other was currently downloading. This was rectified after the other session disconnected. (account sharing does reduce speeds, as janitor said, but this speed reduction is not immediate)

By the way the SAIX stats for my account are the same as the IS stats. They just do not show the current sessions, nor which regions the sessions originated from.

After all this testing, I asked to have the password change ability enabled since it was finally "available". This ability had the added effect of showing me my stats. The stats that OW said they did not track by default so they could not throttle you. Big surprise, I could see the stats for the entire month even though the ability was activated near the end of the month. (OW does know you usage and probably does not want to show it to you due the other session on your account)

With all this deception and terrible speeds, I am glad that I already cancelled. I should have cancelled sooner. Too bad my cancellation (or maybe the request for the password change ability) appears to have enable the newest version of the shaper. That is during weekdays, no browsing (or gaming) possible from 08:00-17:00, very slow downloads from 08:00-17:00 and slow downloads from 17:00-23:00.

 

[wingnut771]

hahah I do enjoy this stockholm syndrome

However, I do believe that Kalster is a logical person. Once he has read through everything that transpired and cableguy's replies at that time, I am sure it would alter his opinion on this matter.

If not, then he must be Dr Keoma himself

Thanks

 

[Sonic2k]

I agree, it makes no sense! Still doesn't explain why accounts just die a random death and have to get another one. Only OW have this problem so they must be doing something "different" to all the other ISP's out there, what that difference is is anybody's guess

Usually that difference is a loophole he is exploiting somewhere, which would also explain why accounts "die" and the user needs to get a new login and password.

 

[wingnut771]

I saw that and commented that to me it makes more sense that their inferior systems simply made an error.

I am not defending Openweb per se, I am trying to get people to think twice before drawing ironclad conclusions from limited evidence. People fill in the gaps themselves and then build further "theories" based on weak assumptions.

What is definitely true is that Openweb's systems for assigning accounts are poor and ancient and it baffles me that they have never actually upgraded it, instead of simply saying it is coming "soon". The same goes for ADSL line rental, which have also been promised as coming "soon" for a long while now.

So? He is saying that they can, but don't share accounts. That is what one would expect if an ISP buys capacity, instead of individual accounts.

That is how ADSL works. The same is true for EVERY ISP. Contention ratios are the norm. That is where different service levels come from, along with shaping policies.

IF they are selling too many accounts for the capacity they own, that is simple overselling. It does not imply that individuals share accounts. There is no logical reason why they would still create one account and sell it to two different people intentionally, while they could simply sell two different accounts. Contention ratios aren't published in any case.

Since there is no logical reason to sell a single account twice (assuming they buy capacity, instead of individual accounts) and since their systems are woefully inadequate, I am forced to seriously consider the possibility that the cases of shared accounts that have been found are system errors.

As for the stats on ISDSL and SAIX, has it been established that the second IP addresses could not have come from maybe a Wifi device on the same account, or a second computer? Maybe if the account details are used at one of the Wifi hotspots that comes with the account?

I think what happens is that customer 1's account goes dead and get's a new one, his old one goes into a cool off room until the stars recover, but I don't think OW keeps accurate records of that and maybe the recycled accounts get dished out more than once?

 

[Zewp]

KALSTER, they sell the same account twice because they make double the profit at no extra cost to themselves. When one person isn't using the account, the other will get fullspeed and think that he is getting what he is paying for. When the other person is raping the account and the second person has slow internet, he is told he is being shaped.

It's easy-capeasy. I don't see why you can't see the reason for selling one account twice.

 

[Sonic2k]

KALSTER, they sell the same account twice because they make double the profit at no extra cost to themselves. When one person isn't using the account, the other will get fullspeed and think that he is getting what he is paying for. When the other person is raping the account and the second person has slow internet, he is told he is being shaped.

It's easy-capeasy. I don't see why you can't see the reason for selling one account twice.

Its a very easy scam and the client faces a monumental uphill battle to prove it.

 

[Zewp]

So? He is saying that they can, but don't share accounts. That is what one would expect if an ISP buys capacity, instead of individual accounts.

The fact that they buy capacity is irrelevant. They set up accounts that can only access a certain amount of capacity. Putting two people on the same account means both of them together can still only access a certain amount of capacity.

Double the profit for no extra cost.

 

[wingnut771]

Usually that difference is a loophole he is exploiting somewhere, which would also explain why accounts "die" and the user needs to get a new login and password.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck

 

[Sonic2k]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck

By the same token, if it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, then it is a steamy turd.

 

[wingnut771]

By the same token, if it looks like a turd, smells like a turd, then it is a steamy turd.

Bwahahahaha!!!

Lucky I just finished my cup before I checked that, I've learned not to have liquid in ones mouth while reading MyBB

 

[snail112]

I've experienced this before, check out my thread on the "Dlink 2500U",its the Telkom line being buggered up.

Guess Telkom has to come back and fix some wires. They came and replace the wire from the pole to the house yesterday. The old wire was patched in 4 places before it entered the house.

The downstream SNR Margin (dB) is now jumping between 19.6 and 19.7; this morning is was 18.

 

[KALSTER]

Dear Keoma/Rep/OW fanboy

My ironclad conclusion was made when I changed my ISP (had to pay double this month for the privilege) and saw how the crap just went away and I actually got FULL LINE SPEED. My conclusion was further cemented with download speeds from my box in a datacentre in Cape Town.

What ironclad conclusion? That Openweb is an inferior ISP for your purposes? Then I'll give you that. However, it doesn't mean they have been purposefully duping their customers.

However, the point still stands. They sharing accounts which contend for limited capacity and then blame it on the shaper/telkom lines/star alignment/attunement. This way if they ever NEED( for who knows what reason) to make contention ratio's available to public due to unknown reasons (e.g. audit) then they still have a nice 15:1 (e.g.) ratio on their set capacity. Meanwhile Johny and Sally are getting crappy speeds because they ACTUALLY in a pool of 30:1 and they just getting told its their line. or Sally's star sign

The logical reason which you so badly are looking for is right infront of you, yet you don't WANT to see it. This method I have explained to you, which they admitted that they are able to do, allows them to buy x amount of capacity and sell it too double the amount of clients that their competitors would sell the same capacity to, thus doubling their profit margins. And at the same time the public just thinks they they are contending for capacity as they would at any other ISP in that price bracket. And if the client complains about this horrendous contention then support blames the shaper, adsl line or the clients hardware.

IF you cannot understand that then I dont know.

Huh? You are just saying the same thing again. Did you not read my post?

]You are being retarded on purpose. The IS stats give the physical location where the connection was made from and it shows Durban and Pretoria connecting to the same account at the same time.

It does, does it? My current external IP says Bloemfontein. I am in Welkom. At other times I have seen it connected elsewhere. Others have reported the same about their external IPs.

 

[KALSTER]

@ eegee

Thanks very much for that detailed report. This is the kind of thing we need, instead of people filling in blanks from lacking information.

So two connections are in fact possible on the same details and full speeds are possible for at least a while, even when both are downloading. This is very interesting and disconcerting.

Edit: I made the above post before reading eegee's account.

 

[Sonic2k]

Bwahahahaha!!!

Lucky I just finished my cup before I checked that, I've learned not to have liquid in ones mouth while reading MyBB

I am glad you guys find me funny Laughter is after all, the best medicine.

 

[Zewp]

It does, does it? My current external IP says Bloemfontein. I am in Welkom. At other times I have seen it connected elsewhere. Others have reported the same about their external IPs.

You realise your explanation goes entirely against what MrBeep always told many of us, right? That second connection is not you. It's someone else. MrBeep said that himself, but he said the person isn't sharing your account, just your pipe.

 

[Zewp]

I'm going to test this now. Just wait a few minutes, I've whatsapped my flatmate and told her to connect to the uncapped account there. Let's see.

 

[Gboss]

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck

QFT!

 

[Zewp]

Righto. Just got confirmation from the flatmate that she's connected to the account and has access to the internet. That would make it two concurrent connections- one running from my flat and one running from home here.