Patent Law

[cerebus]

We're talking about Samsung though ....

yea that was a Samsung tab I linked there on the bottom pic. We're also talking about the Galaxy S vs the iPhone 4:

Surely it's obvious how closely they followed Apple's icon set. Look at the calendar - bezeled top with day of month in bold and the word Calendar underneath.

Looking at a friends Galaxy Tab 10.1 - there is no home button .... the tablet orientation is landscape with the camera/logo on the landscape section.

Once again, I'm only talking about the UI elements. You can't really deviate much from the bezelled large LCD screen template.

How else can one make a tablet?

I'm not answerable to your lack of imagination ... but here's one idea that I'm a big fan of:

 

[Dolby]

How else can one make a tablet?

I'm not answerable to your lack of imagination ... but here's one idea that I'm a big fan of

I'm talking of the physical hardware - how else can you make it?
If I asked you to make me a glass pane for my lounge - but don't copy the existing manufacturers, what would you make?
If I asked you to make a pencil - how different will it be?
A TV? A car? Will it still have 4 wheels, a steering wheel, headlights and doors?

My argument with the hardware is that it's near impossible to separate an iPad and Galaxy Tab entirely. It effectively consists of a large touch screen and bevel - that's it.

The icons ... haven't all 'Text/SMS' icons had an envelope since the beginning of time?
All contact icons I've seen - on a 10 year phone, on a tablet, on a Mac, on a PC etc all have a person

My calendar logo on my Blackberry logo looks similar too .... I wonder what possessed them to make a calendar logo look like a calendar and display the date? It's so bizarre ... I think a lightning bolt would be more appropriate :/

/sarcasm

EDIT : Come to think of it, Apple has more than likely patented and willing to sue any lightning image due to their Thunderbold port.

 

[Zyzzyva]

I'm talking of the physical hardware - how else can you make it?
If I asked you to make me a glass pane for my lounge - but don't copy the existing manufacturers, what would you make?
If I asked you to make a pencil - how different will it be?
A TV? A car? Will it still have 4 wheels, a steering wheel, headlights and doors?

My argument with the hardware is that it's near impossible to separate an iPad and Galaxy Tab entirely. It effectively consists of a large touch screen and bevel - that's it.

The icons ... haven't all 'Text/SMS' icons had an envelope since the beginning of time?
All contact icons I've seen - on a 10 year phone, on a tablet, on a Mac, on a PC etc all have a person

My calendar logo on my Blackberry logo looks similar too .... I wonder what possessed them to make a calendar logo look like a calendar and display the date? It's so bizarre ... I think a lightning bolt would be more appropriate :/

/sarcasm

EDIT : Come to think of it, Apple has more than likely patented and willing to sue any lightning image due to their Thunderbold port.

So if apple decides to change all their icons to talking heads followed by bricks and samsung does exactly the same it isn't a problem?

There is a line, occasionally its crossed, when its not the courts need to favor the company who is right.

I don't really have a problem with big companies suing each other back and forth, that happens all the time, i have a problem when big companies sue little companies maliciously, because the legal costs can be damaging even if they are right.

 

[cerebus]

I'm talking of the physical hardware - how else can you make it?

Yoh...you really paid close attention to my answer rather than cherrypicking parts out didn't you:

Once again, I'm only talking about the UI elements. You can't really deviate much from the bezelled large LCD screen template.

The entire, general debate is about whether Apple has a viable lawsuit against Samsung. That includes BOTH hardware AND software. I'll just repeat myself that they don't have much grounds in terms of hardware, but for the UI there are absolutely unmistakable signs that Samsung lazily copied Apple's iconography.

But I'm guessing you'll just come back with more ranting about the hardware....so that's fine.

 

[Dolby]

So if apple decides to change all their icons to talking heads followed by bricks and samsung does exactly the same it isn't a problem?

Read this :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea–expression_divide

There are only so many ways to express an idea.

A contact icon - no matter which company or what era - consists of person.

Photo album? A camera or picture
Music? A music note or CD
Calendar? A calender!
Email, SMS or message? An envelope
Phone? A phone

Do you understand that some things have to be represented a certain way. This is a slight grey area and *possibly* the only area Apple may win. For example that green phone could be changed to another colour, but it'd still be a phone and there's little Apple can do about it.

EDIT : Apple have lost a law suit before with the idea/expression divide http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation

Apple listed 189 GUI elements; the court decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing a particular idea.

 

[Dolby]

but for the UI there are absolutely unmistakable signs that Samsung lazily copied Apple's iconography

Arguably, the better of the two software interfaces is the Samsung anyhow.

I wish Apple would steal an idea or two from Android to enhance rather than limit their software. Barring - of course - the things they've already stolen such as notifications, lock screen short cut to camera, OTA updates ...

 

[CrazYmonkeY159]

Yeah Apple definitely have legal grounds to stand on here. I was only commenting on how pathetic the case actually is. Apple do have a solid case, but in the grander scheme of things the consumer will be the only person to suffer here, If Apple had it their way, Android would not exist. The irony is Apple created the conditions which made it possible for Android to flourish as a good competitor.

Arguably, the better of the two software interfaces is the Samsung anyhow.

I wish Apple would steal an idea or two from Android to enhance rather than limit their software. Barring - of course - the things they've already stolen such as notifications, lock screen short cut to camera, OTA updates ...

Like what? multiple homescreens and widgets? If you want droid features get a droid, if you want iOS features get an iPhone we consumers are spoiled with choice here, think of like pre-2007. how woeful were "smartphones" then.

take a look at where Android and iOS are fundamentally headed towards. iOS 5.x tried to add more Android-like features. and Android 4.0 is trying to unify the tablet and phone OS, and they are trying to unify the user expirience between the two mobile device types.

There is no big IT company out there which isn't infringing on hundreds if not thousands of patents on their products. I know that when it comes to software patents especially most of the time they are used as bargaining chips for cross licensing or just used to bully or threaten other companies. One of Google's main reasons for buying Motorola was for Motorola's patent portfolio. And Google have publicly stated that they are perusing these patents primarily to pre-empt future attacks from competitors. They basically bought these patents as a defensive maneuver.

Apple have sued multiple OEMs for Androids Gallery application, this app is a native Android application, I know Apple have sued HTC over this, what's to stop Apple from suing Sony or LG over the same thing.

Apple are smart. They know how to maximize grief

 

[Dolby]

Apologies - the better depending on what you want it for.

I - for one - would prefer a little customization. I'm really surprised Apple has even allowed us to change the wallpaper :/

But I'd love a home screen, were the weather would display - as well as share price, currency and whatever else I choose. I'd like to be able to download what I want and when I want - and not when they decide.

I'd like to be able to browse a site - and not be told that it's disallowed because it's old technology.

Small tweaks like that would undoubtedly make it King among tablets.

 

[cerebus]

I - for one - would prefer a little customization. I'm really surprised Apple has even allowed us to change the wallpaper :/

I would too.

But I'd love a home screen, were the weather would display - as well as share price, currency and whatever else I choose.

There's an app for that.

I'd like to be able to download what I want and when I want - and not when they decide.

I'd like to be able to browse a site - and not be told that it's disallowed because it's old technology.

Yea yea yea bang the old drum.

Small tweaks like that would undoubtedly make it King among tablets.

And the fact that it sells at a 9:1 ratio to any other tablet.....also..kinda already makes it the king among tablets.

 

[Dolby]

I would too

Great - we agree

There's an app for that

Downloading we speak. Thanks.

I'm actually glad one is still available, because Steve doesn't like apps that create a desktop or widgets. In fact, he removed a number that he deemed to be doing just that.

Yea yea yea bang the old drum.

Oh right - once you see an issue, you can bring it once - and then we need to sweep it under the rug and never chat about it again? I'm still getting used the way of the Apple user :/ It's quite a difficult club to crack the nod and you're instantly out if you do anything wrong - like mention something that isn't great ...

And the fact that it sells at a 9:1 ratio to any other tablet.....also..kinda already makes it the king among tablets.

Is that what they tell you? :/

EDIT : That app is still an app - it doesn't change the desktop. You still need to click it and go inside in order to see anything

 

[cerebus]

Great - we agree

I'm not a huge fan of the IOS UI, or a lot of aspects of the iPad. Particularly my current inability to jailbreak on 5.0.1 :/ That's why I find it so frustrating when all these manufacturers can't even take the trouble to design something better. Tablet PC's are in their infancy and iPads are a LONG way from the perfect design.

Oh right - once you see an issue, you can bring it once - and then we need to sweep it under the rug and never chat about it again? I'm still getting used the way of the Apple user :/ It's quite a difficult club to crack the nod and you're instantly out if you do anything wrong - like mention something that isn't great ...

No, it's just more like totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Is that what they tell you? :/

Oh the numbers are pretty self-evident. In fact it's more like 9 iPads sold for all other tablets combined:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2011/nov/25/apple-tablet-context-npd
I wouldn't like to be the guy who ordered a production run of 2mil Playbooks, would you?

EDIT : That app is still an app - it doesn't change the desktop. You still need to click it and go inside in order to see anything

It's an alarm clock, but still pretty cool. I set it in the evening.

 

[Dolby]

I'm not a huge fan of the IOS UI, or a lot of aspects of the iPad. Particularly my current inability to jailbreak on 5.0.1 :/ That's why I find it so frustrating when all these manufacturers can't even take the trouble to design something better. Tablet PC's are in their infancy and iPads are a LONG way from the perfect design.

+1

I love my iPad and I'd suspect that if I could jailbreak, I'd be more than happy with it. I'd wager a guess that I probably use mine more than you

I find the main issues that bug me to are no end, are those inserted on purpose - and not a design fault.

Someone SAT there are though, 'let us restrict their 3G downloads and force them to a wifi access point'

IOh the numbers are pretty self-evident. In fact it's more like 9 iPads sold for all other tablets combined:

Whoa.

I'll have to decipher that at home.

But I know the sales figures for the Samsung Galaxy 10.1 and the iPad for the same period, are definately not 9:1.

I read somewhere that iPad was 3 million after 3 months - and the Samsung 2 million after 3 months. Yes - a fair amount, but by no means 9:1. You can't really take market share because that accounts for every tablet in the market - and the iPad has a 12 month head start on the Samsung.

Almost like comparing the total sales of 18 month old car model vs 6 month - obviously the 1st would be streets ahead.

It's an alarm clock, but still pretty cool. I set it in the evening.

It is pretty cool .... I'm going to keep it. Just not a widget

 

[Zyzzyva]

Dolby widget or live icons is the natural next step for IOS6. Apple has been selectively filling obvious holes with each update. I agree it needs to happen. It because of its limitations i prefer my mac 99% of the time over my iPad.

 

[[)roi(]]

Dolby widget or live icons is the natural next step for IOS6. Apple has been selectively filling obvious holes with each update. I agree it needs to happen. It because of its limitations i prefer my mac 99% of the time over my iPad.

I'm not sure I agree... How much do you use widgets on your Mac? For me it's rare that I use them, even now that with Lion it's a simple swipe away.

I'd rather Apple focus their attention on new differentiation features like for example: Siri
Copy and paste methodologies won't drive this new form factor forward, ...

I want to be surprised by technology, rather than just receiving the next logical step; if that was the best approach then I believe it would have taken a long time before we would have had seen anything like the iPhone or iPad.

Of course it has it's flaws, but not everyone is going to agree on exactly what these are; widgets will at least for me be one of those features that I will want to be able to turn off -- same case btw on my Android tablet.

Also I don't see tablets replacing computers, and neither would I like that to happen -- there are a least for me, key operations that are just better suited to a computer.

 

[Dolby]

This thread has actually gone off topic

We use the Apple section to debate and argue both.

My initial question was on the laws itself - and can one company patent a phone, a TV, a chair or objects like rectangles with rounded corners?

 

[Zyzzyva]

I'm not sure I agree... How much do you use widgets on your Mac? For me it's rare that I use them, even now that with Lion it's a simple swipe away.

I'd rather Apple focus their attention on new differentiation features like for example: Siri
Copy and paste methodologies won't drive this new form factor forward, ...

I want to be surprised by technology, rather than just receiving the next logical step; if that was the best approach then I believe it would have taken a long time before we would have had seen anything like the iPhone or iPad.

Of course it has it's flaws, but not everyone is going to agree on exactly what these are; widgets will at least for me be one of those features that I will want to be able to turn off -- same case btw on my Android tablet.

Also I don't see tablets replacing computers, and neither would I like that to happen -- there are a least for me, key operations that are just better suited to a computer.

Perhaps i should elaborate. I'm still not overly sold on how the iPad does multitasking. The in/out in/out to a sparse static homescreen still feels a bit limited and claustrophobic to me. I agree on a ten inch device you can't really do side by side, but at the same time there needs to be a way to view a few things at once. I think windows 8 might be going in the right direction with its live tile concept, but that still needs a lot of work. I agree random resizable widgets are mostly crap; devs rarely build quality widgets and users tend to misuse them to their own detriment often without realizing it. Placement is also an issue.

Its a hard problem to solves really. We will have to wait and see how windows 8 plays out, but there is definitely room for some new thinking. IOS is beginning to feel a bit stale to me - but mostly on the iPad.

 

[Zyzzyva]

This thread has actually gone off topic

We use the Apple section to debate and argue both.

My initial question was on the laws itself - and can one company patent a phone, a TV, a chair or objects like rectangles with rounded corners?

hehe sorry

 

[[)roi(]]

This thread has actually gone off topic

We use the Apple section to debate and argue both.

My initial question was on the laws itself - and can one company patent a phone, a TV, a chair or objects like rectangles with rounded corners?

There's no debate that the system is flawed... To restate my position -- it needs reform.
Agreed re the remainder of the topics discussed.

 

[cerebus]

http://www.theverge.com/apple/2011/12/20/2648418/apple-extends-samsung-patent-complaint-to-cases

So now Apple is suing Samsung over their case designs.

And they won an injunction against a small number of HTC phones this morning as well.
http://ca.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idCATRE7BI24620111220

It's all getting rather out of control.

 

[WilD_CaT]

IP is a bunch of protectionist hogwash and is anti-property rights.

Read up on IP on Stephen Kinsella's website: http://www.stephankinsella.com/

See the slides from one of his presentations here...
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dgp7mzbr_357fxcwp7ff