Perverted Penguins

[STS]

Another problem is people try and use their various religious beliefs to try and tell others how to live their lives. Now this leaves us with a conundrum. We can either go on trying to tell others how to live their lives and try to justify it by looking at vague natural examples or scriptures or ideologies or what-not, or we can just let people live their lives in peace. Just like they let us live ours in peace. Makes sense, no?

of course, but refering to something not being natural means it goes against the order of things, and then they cite examples. it's ironic because if they're looking at animals sexuality, why don't they look at animals feeding habits, sleeping habits or living habits? animasl dont' eat sweets, neither should you. animals don't use fire, neither should you.

i think it's better to debunk why nature and people are different rather than trying to search in nature for bad examples

 

[Geriatrix]

of course, but refering to something not being natural means it goes against the order of things, and then they cite examples. it's ironic because if they're looking at animals sexuality, why don't they look at animals feeding habits, sleeping habits or living habits? animasl dont' eat sweets, neither should you. animals don't use fire, neither should you.

i think it's better to debunk why nature and people are different rather than trying to search in nature for bad examples

Animals eat sweets. I saw a bonobo use fire once. Everything that exists can be argued to be natural. So. Can we agree to stop trying to dictate others sexuality then?

 

[porchrat]

Animals eat sweets. I saw a bonobo use fire once. Everything that exists can be argued to be natural. So. Can we agree to stop trying to dictate others sexuality then?

Heck I saw a bonobo create and tend to a fire not just simply use it (like find a burning tree limb and flail it around ineffectually). I also saw a bonobo use water to extinguish fire. Those things are so intelligent it is scary.

 

[Techne]

Animals eat sweets. I saw a bonobo use fire once. Everything that exists can be argued to be natural. So. Can we agree to stop trying to dictate others sexuality then?

Sex is an act, one kind of act among many kinds of human actions.

Would you agree that we stop trying to dictate others' actions altogether or just specific acts? Where do you draw the line?

 

[porchrat]

Sex is an act, one kind of act among many kinds of human actions.

Would you agree that we stop trying to dictate others' actions altogether or just specific acts? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line where it causes harm (this includes a lack of consent). Provided the sex is between 2 consenting adults it is far from that line.

 

[Geriatrix]

Where do you draw the line?

Where it doesn't affect us or harm anyone.
And let me reverse that for you.
Where would you draw the line in dictating to others how they can act?

 

[STS]

Animals eat sweets. I saw a bonobo use fire once. Everything that exists can be argued to be natural. So. Can we agree to stop trying to dictate others sexuality then?

only instance i know of is that the bonobo was domesticated, i mean animals in the wild naturally i'm not trying to dictate sexuality, i'm all for sexuality, i'm just saying stop looking to nature for justification

 

[Geriatrix]

i'm not trying to dictate sexuality, i'm all for sexuality, i'm just saying stop looking to nature for justification

okhe!

 

[porchrat]

only instance i know of is that the bonobo was domesticated, i mean animals in the wild naturally i'm not trying to dictate sexuality, i'm all for sexuality, i'm just saying stop looking to nature for justification

A bonobo is a wild animal. You can't domesticate it just like you can't domesticate a cheetah or a wild dog or something.

You can maybe get it slightly more conditioned to humans or you could raise it in captivity but it will never be domesticated, just tamed. Domestication takes a prolonged period of selective breeding. A dog or a cat or a chicken are examples of domestication... a bonobo that grew up around some humans is not.

Thing is though that whether the bonobo is tame or not seems largely irrelevant to me. It may have been taught to control fire but then again so were you. You didn't pull the knowledge of controlling fire from nowhere, you were taught it.. It was capable of understanding something and so were you. We can indeed see a reflection of a little of ourselves in those creatures and while we may not be able to compare ourselves in totality we can compare ourselves in some ways.

 

[porchrat]

Where it doesn't affect us or harm anyone.
And let me reverse that for you.
Where would you draw the line in dictating to others how they can act?

Oh no here comes Classical Theism and Aristotle again. You just had to open Pandora's box didn't you!

 

[Techne]

Where it doesn't affect us or harm anyone.
And let me reverse that for you.
Where would you draw the line in dictating to others how they can act?

Preferably I wish to live in a society where people do not have to be dictated, where they are educated and a have sound view of ethics. Sadly we don't live in such a society and I don't really know where to draw the line or where one can make the distinction between "it affect us or not" since it may or may not. It is a subjective line without proper first principles. Which makes me wonder, without proper first principles, how can you draw any line anyway in dictating to others how they can act? What first principles do you employ and can they be employed consistently and objectively or are they just subjective... shall we say mental masturbations ?

Oh no here comes Classical Theism and Aristotle again. You just had to open Pandora's box didn't you!

Sis troll. Stop poisoning the well and committing other fallacies :wtf:.

 

[Geriatrix]

Oh no here comes Classical Theism and Aristotle again. You just had to open Pandora's box didn't you!

LOL. Well. I'm not going into all that on a Friday afternoon. Suffice to say that what to adults do in the privacy of their bedroom doesn't affect me in the slightest. I doubt any amount of ancient Greek philosophy would convince me otherwise. Besides, me and Techne are cool

 

[Geriatrix]

Preferably I wish to live in a society where people do not have to be dictated, where they are educated and a have sound view of ethics. Sadly we don't live in such a society and I don't really know where to draw the line or where one can make the distinction between "it affect us or not" since it may or may not. It is a subjective line without proper first principles. Which makes me wonder, without proper first principles, how can you draw any line anyway in dictating to others how they can act? What first principles do you employ and can they be employed consistently and objectively or are they just subjective... shall we say mental masturbations

Which is why we have our constitution. It seems to be working pretty well. Until religious beliefs are brought into it. .

 

[porchrat]

Preferably I wish to live in a society where people do not have to be dictated, where they are educated and a have sound view of ethics. Sadly we don't live in such a society and I don't really know where to draw the line or where one can make the distinction between "it affect us or not" since it may or may not. It is a subjective line without proper first principles. Which makes me wonder, without proper first principles, how can you draw any line anyway in dictating to others how they can act? What first principles do you employ and can they be employed consistently and objectively or are they just subjective... shall we say mental masturbations ?


Sis troll. Stop poisoning the well and committing other fallacies :wtf:.

Yup and we are back to first principles and other philosophical musings. In a fscking science thread. Sweet Jesus you just can't help yourself Techne!

 

[Techne]

Which is why we have our constitution. It seems to be working pretty well.

Really? Ok...

 

[murraybiscuit]

These 'first principles' come from where exactly? Do they exist as a list somewhere? It could be useful to have something that we could perhaps use as a normative framework I guess. Anybody got a sampler? If they are that obvious and implicit, it shouldn't be too hard a task getting everyone to agree on them.

 

[Geriatrix]

Yup and we are back to first principles and other philosophical musings. In a fscking science thread. Sweet Jesus you just can't help yourself Techne!

To be honest, this thread was about perverted penguins to begin with. So...

 

[Techne]

These 'first principles' come from where exactly? Do they exist as a list somewhere? It could be useful to have something that we could perhaps use as a normative framework I guess. Anybody got a sampler? If they are that obvious and implicit, it shouldn't be too hard a task getting everyone to agree on them.

Intellectual abstractions.

Either they have their basis in reality (realist approach) or they don't (anti-realist approach). In the first case they can be discovered through reason. In the second case, all "first principles" are mere... well mental masturbations if you want.

To be honest, this thread was about perverted penguins to begin with. So...

"Perverted" pigeons... Yeah, there aren't many philosophical topics more intriguing than pigeons doing the dirty with their dead pals .

 

[Geriatrix]

"Perverted" pigeons... Yeah, there aren't many philosophical topics more intriguing than pigeons doing the dirty with their dead pals .

It's like Saw: Philosophical Edition.

 

[porchrat]

To be honest, this thread was about perverted penguins to begin with. So...

Got to agree. the whole thread belongs in Off Topic.