Pierre de Vos on the DA

Djtay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2009
Messages
462
Reaction score
0
Not sure if this has been posted before...

http://constitutionallyspeaking.co.za/do-as-we-say-not-as-we-do/

Do as we say, not as we do?

I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read yesterday that the Democratic Alliance has warned that politicising the office of the Public Protector undermined the “brilliant” work it has done. The Cape Times reported that the DA’s defence of Adv Thuli Madonsela comes in the wake of an attack on her by the ANC Youth League (ANCYL) and COPE’s reference to her office as a “toothless wonder” after she found Communications Minister Siphiwe Nyanda guilty of breaching the Executive Members’ Code of Ethics by publicly defending axed Transnet Freight Rail boss Siyabonga Gama.

The ANCYL – in its usual hysterical way – lashed out at Madonsela for finding Nyanda guilty of being “truthful” and questioned whether she was protecting the public, or merely “parroting misperceptions of opposition parties”. (This defense of Nyanda is interesting because it suggests that the tenderpreneurs of the ANCYL and the tenderpreneurs in cabinet were watching each others backs.) DA MP and Justice and Constitutional Development spokesperson Natasha Michael said the ANC had “systematically ignored” the role played by the Public Protector. It praised Madonsela for her investigations and warned political parties not to interfere.

The sentiments expressed by Michael are of course laudable and correct. Political parties should not interfere with the work of Chapter 9 institutions (or courts) and they should not try to politicise the decisions of these institutions for short term political gain. This is a principled and constitutionally honourable position to take. But I suspect Michael did not clear this statement with her leader, Helen Zille, who seems to hold a different view.

In the wake of a report by the Human Rights Commission into the Western Cape toilet saga, Zille did exactly what Michael says political parties should not do: she questioned the political motives of a Chapter 9 institution and claimed that the Human Rights Commission was being abused as part of a dark conspiracy to tarnish the good name (if any) of the DA, stating as follows:

Three years ago when the City was locked in a make-or-break battle with the Province over the unconstitutional Erasmus Commission, Professor Pierre de Vos took me to task for saying: “some judges allow themselves to be used and, unfortunately, (Judge) Nathan Erasmus is one of them.” Today, I repeat that in relation to the SA Human Rights Commission: Some Chapter Nine institutions allow themselves to be abused and, unfortunately, the SA Human Rights Commission is one of them.

Instead of sticking to a factual and legal argument about why the SAHRC report might be flawed (something she had every right to do), she attacked the integrity of the Commission to try and deflect attention from the extremely embarrasing saga about open toilets. It is so much easier to attack the messenger than to deal with the substantive issues: the DA equivalent of “pulling the race card”.

Sadly, this is part of a broader pattern in which the DA in general and its leader in particular seem to have one standard for the ANC and other political parties and another standard for itself. It is as if the DA believes that it is exempt from the same standards it holds others to because it believes it is the only party who knows what is best for everyone (a rather patronising view) and that it is therefore the only party who can be trusted without having to be held to the general principles on which a functioning democracy is based. It thus sees itself being exempt from the duty to honour the principles it claims to espouse. “Do as we say, not as we do,” seems to be the DA motto.

Given our history and given the racial profile of the DA, one would be forgiven for concluding that the DA believes only white people can be trusted, that white people therefore do not have to follow general principles of constitutional democracy and good governance, and that white people are therefore allowed to deal with each situation on its own merits without having to stick to the rules it claims to respect and honour. Black people, on the other hand, must be held to a higher standard because they are inherently unprincipled and corrupt enemies of democracy.

When Gwede Mantashe attacked judges of the Constitutional Court as counter-revolutionaries, the DA rightly criticised this because the ANC leader was launching a personal attack on judges of the highest court and was undermining respect for the judiciary. But when The Dear Leader, Helen Zille, attacked the integrity of Judge Nathan Erasmus, a High Court judge, thus undermining respect for the judiciary herself, we were supposed to cheer her on. She argued that, given the facts, she had every reason to question the integrity of a judge. And besides, so Zille argued, the High Court had declared the Erasmus commission unlawful and her attack was therefore justified.

This is, of course, nonsense. The High Court (per Swain J) never found that Erasmus had allowed himself to be used by the ANC (as Zille had implied) and the High Court did not question the integrity or motives of Judge Erasmus. In fact, although Judge Swain found that the then Premier had acted with an ulterior purpose in appointing the Commission, he explicitly exonerated Judge Erasmus stating: “I wish to make it absolutely clear that I do not suggest that Erasmus J was in any way a party to such conduct“.

The High Court - re-interpreting the jurisprudence of the Constitutional Court in a rather “innovative” manner – did find that a judge should not have agreed to chair the commission, but the court made it clear that no ulterior purpose (as alleged by Zille) was present on the part of the judge. This fact was lost in the post judgment spin by Zille and the DA sycophants.

What was also lost was that the DA and Zille had actually not pressed the point before the court at all that Erasmus personally was allowing himself to be used or was biased. In fact, judge Swain explicitly found that he did not have to answer this question. The High Court therefore did not exonerate Zille regarding her personal attack on Erasmus as the matter was not pursued before the court by the DA lawyers (although it was raised initially). Lawyers are not stupid so they probably knew that there was no chance that a court would endorse Zille’s scurrilous attack on a sitting judge.

Of course, courts often find that other judges had erred, but this does not give anyone the right to call into question the integrity of the judge whose decision was found wanting by another court. Down that road lies anarchy and a complete disrespect for the judiciary.

Similarly, after the High Court had found in favour of Zuma in his case to have the search and seizure warrants declared unlawful, the decision was finally overturned by the Constitutional Court. This did not allow either Mantashe or anyone else to call into question the integrity of the High Court judges or the judges of the Constitutional Court. Neither the High Court nor the Constitutional Court had found that any judge involved in the case had acted like counter-revolutionaries, so Mantashe had no right to make that allegation. Like Zille, he was attacking and politicising one of the three branches of our democracy. Unlike Zille, he has not continued to defend the indefensible.

And of course, when serious allegations of wrongdoing or criminal activity by ANC leaders surface, the DA – once again, rightly, in my opinion - demand that the affected leader should be suspended or should step aside until such time as the allegations have been dealt with or the criminal case concluded. But when a DA MP was charged two weeks ago with raping a young woman, the DA blithely stated that it had no reason not to believe the denials of its MP, that the MP is innocent until proven guilty, and therefore that the DA would not suspend that MP.

The same pattern repeats itself over and over again. It tarnishes the name of the DA (to the extent that it has a name) as it opens the party to charges of hypocrisy and, worse, racism. It reflects a kind of arrogance that is often associated with someone who has been the Baas his or her whole life and is used to being the Baas and to tell others what to do and how to behave while not having to follow suit. “We are always right, we are always principled, therefore we do not have to follow the same principles we claim to hold so dear and demand others respect.”

No wonder the vast majority of black people (and most of the sensible white people I know) refuse to vote for the DA – despite the corruption and maladministration of many ANC led municipalities and provinces. Who wants to be lorded over by such a bunch of self-righteous and unprincipled hypocrites?

Nail...Head....
 
Dude... you're supposed to hit the nail with a hammer... not your head.
 
An interesting opinion. I agree with some of its sentiments, specifically the double standards.

But this article is doomed to forumites talking all sorts of crap and not reading the opinion with an open mind...
 
An interesting opinion. I agree with some of its sentiments, specifically the double standards.

But this article is doomed to forumites talking all sorts of crap and not reading the opinion with an open mind...

Read Gary's comments....typical DA supporter behaviour...shifting the blame and trying to deflect attention away from their own failings.
 
Read Gary's comments....typical DA supporter behaviour...shifting the blame and trying to deflect attention away from their own failings.

Failing = 13 years+ in power and the poor are poorer. Well done to the ANC elite few who made (read STOLE) their millions. I can only laugh at the average ANC voter who thinks his government gives a **** about him/her.
 
Somebody's opinion, obviously skewed and tarnished by hatred.

Scewed and tarnished by hatred? Piere de Vos is one of the leading constitutional law experts in the country. He is currently the Claude Leon Foundation Chair in Constitutional Governance at UCT.

When he slams the ANC he is admired by all DA supporters and quoted far and wide. When he slams the DA, he is "scewed and twisted".

Pathetic.
Develop some moral backbone, read the excellent analysis, and criticize the DA when they do wrong. Otherwise you are just showing blind loyalty
 
Failing = 13 years+ in power and the poor are poorer. Well done to the ANC elite few who made (read STOLE) their millions. I can only laugh at the average ANC voter who thinks his government gives a **** about him/her.

Excellent attempt to divert the attention away from the article and point at hand.

I am a DA supporter and your attempts to not acknowledge our own faults makes us look bad
 
Scewed and tarnished by hatred? Piere de Vos is one of the leading constitutional law experts in the country. He is currently the Claude Leon Foundation Chair in Constitutional Governance at UCT.

When he slams the ANC he is admired by all DA supporters and quoted far and wide. When he slams the DA, he is "scewed and twisted".

Pathetic.
Develop some moral backbone, read the excellent analysis, and criticize the DA when they do wrong. Otherwise you are just showing blind loyalty

Which is ironic considering that is what they accuse ANC voters of...
 
There are a lot of things lost on this particular poster :D


No comments from you regarding the article Gary?

Too busy defending the Israeli scum on the other thread as usual.
 
So who do they vote for then?

The same pattern repeats itself over and over again. It tarnishes the name of the DA (to the extent that it has a name) as it opens the party to charges of hypocrisy and, worse, racism. It reflects a kind of arrogance that is often associated with someone who has been the Baas his or her whole life and is used to being the Baas and to tell others what to do and how to behave while not having to follow suit.

Race card....

Sounds like old comrade Fazda and co
 
Last edited:
Excellent attempt to divert the attention away from the article and point at hand.

I am a DA supporter and your attempts to not acknowledge our own faults makes us look bad

Assuming I am a DA supporter? No attempt at anything - just pitching my definition of FAILURE.
 
So who does they vote for then?



Race card....

Sounds like old comrade Fazda and co

I chuckled when I read this post, as this dude comments on this type of behaviour...

Instead of sticking to a factual and legal argument about why the SAHRC report might be flawed (something she had every right to do), she attacked the integrity of the Commission to try and deflect attention from the extremely embarrasing saga about open toilets. It is so much easier to attack the messenger than to deal with the substantive issues: the DA equivalent of “pulling the race card”.

;)
 
This is not exactly a new fight between De Vos and Zille/DA...

He's been involved in this little fight with her since 2008
 
I chuckled when I read this post, as this dude comments on this type of behaviour...

;)

It's a bit rich for him to complain of the "DA equivalent of “pulling the race card” when he plays it himself repeatedly. Plenty of race baiting in the article. If he wants his opinions taken seriously it's best he leave that crap out.

Anyway the DA are guilty of underhand tactics and hypocrisy themselves. But not to the extent of the ANC.
 
No wonder the vast majority of black people (and most of the sensible white people I know) refuse to vote for the DA – despite the corruption and maladministration of many ANC led municipalities and provinces. Who wants to be lorded over by such a bunch of self-righteous and unprincipled hypocrites?

The vast majority of black people wouldn't vote for the DA because they would rather vote for a totally corrupt black party than any white party. Why anyone in their right mind would actually want a corrupt and mal-administrating party (your words) is beyond the majority of honest South Africans hoping to see this country prosper. Obviously you don't give a damn to see your hard-earned money squandered and being stolen by the very people that are put in place to serve your interests, as long as they're not self-righteous hypocrites. Please, your infantile attempts to discredit the DA is just becoming pathetic. But don't take my word for anything .. if you really want to see how a party is doing look at their track-record. What scares you so much about the DA that you have to try & bring them down at every opportunity? You probably took what that Zuma spouted to heart, about how the forefathers will punish you for turning your back on the ANC.

Vote for your pathetic leaders. Vote for the thieves and scoundrels. Let them steal your kids' birthright from under them so everyone ends up with nothing like Zimbabwe.
At least they were not self-righteous and unprincipled hypocrites ... thank god for that!!!
 
It's a bit rich for him to complain of the "DA equivalent of “pulling the race card” when he plays it himself repeatedly.

Yes, I noticed how he used the words "black" and "white" to refer to skin colour. Must be a racist, right? If he wasn't racist, he wouldn't see a difference between the two... :p


(In all seriousness, I admit to only quickly reading the article but I didn't see anything that might be termed race-baiting or pulling the race card. Can you help me find it?)
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X