martin
Expert Member
Not if you're a gamer though. Satellite = high latency.
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Question of the Day: What's the most interesting small town you've visited in South Africa?
Please answer some questions..
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gripen
Expert Member
Back to the issue of license revocation.. I know that they cant make you pay up BUT then why is it in the Terms and Conditions (Contract?) like all the other catch clauses..
Also, about the 30000-60000 users.. arent you forgetting about contention ratios? And the fact that if broadband is supplied then the initial uptake will generate capital that can contribute to purchasing more optical bandwidth.
With a contention of say 50:1 you can expand that 200KB/sec for 30000 users to almost 500000 users at 512Kb/sec. Now we dont even have 100000 users at that speed already so there should be no bandwidth problem at present.
I for one am happy to get a (slow) 128Kb always on connection to my home at reasonable cost (say R500 a month) so the myWireless option is sufficient for me and for most people. If you are going to stream DVDs then sure you will need megabroadband. Besides, apart from political influence this can be achieved thanks to breakthroughs by amongst others,Intel, that will revolutionise optical data transmission and reduce costs to a fraction of what they are today.
I would still like to know what is in the 24 month contract and for example, (in clear english) what happens if my 128k myWireless only gives speeds of 4KB/sec in month 15 or so.. then can I complain? I mean if nothing changed and I didnt move?
Also, about the 30000-60000 users.. arent you forgetting about contention ratios? And the fact that if broadband is supplied then the initial uptake will generate capital that can contribute to purchasing more optical bandwidth.
With a contention of say 50:1 you can expand that 200KB/sec for 30000 users to almost 500000 users at 512Kb/sec. Now we dont even have 100000 users at that speed already so there should be no bandwidth problem at present.
I for one am happy to get a (slow) 128Kb always on connection to my home at reasonable cost (say R500 a month) so the myWireless option is sufficient for me and for most people. If you are going to stream DVDs then sure you will need megabroadband. Besides, apart from political influence this can be achieved thanks to breakthroughs by amongst others,Intel, that will revolutionise optical data transmission and reduce costs to a fraction of what they are today.
I would still like to know what is in the 24 month contract and for example, (in clear english) what happens if my 128k myWireless only gives speeds of 4KB/sec in month 15 or so.. then can I complain? I mean if nothing changed and I didnt move?
Perdition
Expert Member
Ditch, the SAT-3 is being used for consumer Internet traffic. All international ADSL traffic as well as Sentech's "up" pipe is on SAT-3. If this doesn't count as consumer traffic then I don't know what does [
]
Adding to what greedyflyza has stated, contention ratios work on economies of scale i.e. the more bandwidth you have the higher you can push the contention ratio while still providing excellent speeds. It is VERY unlikely that if you have 60 000 users that all users will be downloading full speed 24/7. 120Gb/s could easily support millions of broadband users. By the time there are millions of broadband users in Africa there will more than likely be additional submarine cables.
Last point, it makes no difference that SAT-3 peers in Europe and not the US, traffic to the US is just routed via the UK. The UK has somewhere near 9 terabits of submarine bandwidth to the US and it is nowhere near being fully utilised. At worst this means there is a little extra latency on traffic to the US.
]Adding to what greedyflyza has stated, contention ratios work on economies of scale i.e. the more bandwidth you have the higher you can push the contention ratio while still providing excellent speeds. It is VERY unlikely that if you have 60 000 users that all users will be downloading full speed 24/7. 120Gb/s could easily support millions of broadband users. By the time there are millions of broadband users in Africa there will more than likely be additional submarine cables.
Last point, it makes no difference that SAT-3 peers in Europe and not the US, traffic to the US is just routed via the UK. The UK has somewhere near 9 terabits of submarine bandwidth to the US and it is nowhere near being fully utilised. At worst this means there is a little extra latency on traffic to the US.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by greedyflyza</i>
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With a contention of say 50:1 you can expand that 200KB/sec for 30000 users to almost 500000 users at 512Kb/sec. Now we dont even have 100000 users at that speed already so there should be no bandwidth problem at present.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That is just not good business sense. A 50:1 contention ratio on 200 KBps could stretch 30,000 users to maybe 1,500,000 users max. That is only 3.5% of South Africa's population, and less than 0.2% of Africa's population. Now while it is very unlikely that all 50 users will be downloading at once, it IS very likely that around 5 out of 50 users will be downloading at once (once things like P2P apps become popular here, more-over there is a BIG bandwidth demand from companies, who will again re-share connections internally between 10 and 100 people, meaning their portions will be mostly busy all day long; likewise houses, schools, flats, residences etc will share connections).
Speaking business: In terms of income per bytes-per-second provided to a user, ordinary voice telecomms (landlines) gives companies like Telkom a MUCH larger income than affordable consumer broadband. Assume the basic cost of landline rental to be R100/month, if Telkom could service (directly or indirectly) tens of millions of African households and businesses all over the continent, that would provide a monthly income in the range of several BILLIONS of rands in line rental alone - that doesn't even count the cost of calls! So that's > R100/month for < 6KB/s (negotiated) 'sometimes-on' connection. Now, affordable consumer broadband (less than R400/month according to international studies) for 1,500,000 well-off South Africans would provide a monthly income to Telkom of only R600,000,000, with no extra call costs, and I can guarantee the line will be totally saturated within 5 years. The broader African telecomms market is growing rapidly, and because Africa is currently so far behind (lowest average landlines per capita in the world by far), the current huge growth is mainly in the form of tens of millions of new landlines - probably 50 to 100 million new landlines in the next 20 years, and let's face it, that is MUCH better business than the SAn consumer broadband market, brings more income and won't saturate your pipe nearly as quickly (and it also happens to make more sense from a pure "African renaissance" perspective too - millions of landlines are far more important to Africa's growth than good pings to game servers for some rich kids). The co-owners of SAT-3 are going to make a LOT of money on licensing SAT-3 bandwidth to fixed-line voice telecomms providers all over Africa. They cannot generate nearly as much income from consumer broadband.
Let's be realistic, we'd all be doing the same thing if we owned Telkom, as much as you or I would like to see proper consumer broadband in SA, it doesn't make sense on SAT-3. And SAT-3 is shared by nearly 20 countries too, only one of which is Nigeria, which alone has a population nearly three times that of South Africa.
To just assume that "when the time comes, there will (magically) be a new undersea cable somewhere" is a bit silly, and certainly makes no business sense at all. If it were mine, I wouldn't go saturate my $620million 120 Gbps 25-year lifespan African connection within the first five years and then just "hope for the best" after that.
BTW, I don't think Sentech uses SAT-3 for tier-1 connection, as far as I know their backbone provider is Internet Solutions, which means satellite.
Africa *will* get more bandwidth, but the big companies will only invest it in "big-time" once the *demand* side reaches "critical mass" - in other words, they will only invest in it once Africa's economy grows larger / richer. And for this to happen, landlines must first come to places where they are scarce (i.e. most of Africa), they are still a more important basis for business development.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
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I for one am happy to get a (slow) 128Kb always on connection to my home at reasonable cost (say R500 a month) so the myWireless option is sufficient for me and for most people.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, me too.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
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If you are going to stream DVDs then sure you will need megabroadband. Besides, apart from political influence this can be achieved thanks to breakthroughs by amongst others,Intel, that will revolutionise optical data transmission and reduce costs to a fraction of what they are today.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Sounds unlikely, could you provide some references? If you're talking about optical routers, the routing electronics limitations are not what limits SAT-3 to 120 Gbps.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I would still like to know what is in the 24 month contract and for example, (in clear english) what happens if my 128k myWireless only gives speeds of 4KB/sec in month 15 or so.. then can I complain? I mean if nothing changed and I didnt move?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
You could probably do nothing. I have the contract here with me, and it says: "9.3 Services are used at the customers own risk and Sentech makes no warranty and or guarantee that the Services will meet the customers requirements, be uninterrupted, complete, timely, secure or error free. Although advised that the customer is in a coverage area, there is no guarantee or warranty given against interference and or use of the goods." The "Service" is defined in terms that make no reference to bandwidth at all, just an indication that some two-way wireless communications with IP will take place.
Anyone else interpret the contract differently?
<br />
With a contention of say 50:1 you can expand that 200KB/sec for 30000 users to almost 500000 users at 512Kb/sec. Now we dont even have 100000 users at that speed already so there should be no bandwidth problem at present.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
That is just not good business sense. A 50:1 contention ratio on 200 KBps could stretch 30,000 users to maybe 1,500,000 users max. That is only 3.5% of South Africa's population, and less than 0.2% of Africa's population. Now while it is very unlikely that all 50 users will be downloading at once, it IS very likely that around 5 out of 50 users will be downloading at once (once things like P2P apps become popular here, more-over there is a BIG bandwidth demand from companies, who will again re-share connections internally between 10 and 100 people, meaning their portions will be mostly busy all day long; likewise houses, schools, flats, residences etc will share connections).
Speaking business: In terms of income per bytes-per-second provided to a user, ordinary voice telecomms (landlines) gives companies like Telkom a MUCH larger income than affordable consumer broadband. Assume the basic cost of landline rental to be R100/month, if Telkom could service (directly or indirectly) tens of millions of African households and businesses all over the continent, that would provide a monthly income in the range of several BILLIONS of rands in line rental alone - that doesn't even count the cost of calls! So that's > R100/month for < 6KB/s (negotiated) 'sometimes-on' connection. Now, affordable consumer broadband (less than R400/month according to international studies) for 1,500,000 well-off South Africans would provide a monthly income to Telkom of only R600,000,000, with no extra call costs, and I can guarantee the line will be totally saturated within 5 years. The broader African telecomms market is growing rapidly, and because Africa is currently so far behind (lowest average landlines per capita in the world by far), the current huge growth is mainly in the form of tens of millions of new landlines - probably 50 to 100 million new landlines in the next 20 years, and let's face it, that is MUCH better business than the SAn consumer broadband market, brings more income and won't saturate your pipe nearly as quickly (and it also happens to make more sense from a pure "African renaissance" perspective too - millions of landlines are far more important to Africa's growth than good pings to game servers for some rich kids). The co-owners of SAT-3 are going to make a LOT of money on licensing SAT-3 bandwidth to fixed-line voice telecomms providers all over Africa. They cannot generate nearly as much income from consumer broadband.
Let's be realistic, we'd all be doing the same thing if we owned Telkom, as much as you or I would like to see proper consumer broadband in SA, it doesn't make sense on SAT-3. And SAT-3 is shared by nearly 20 countries too, only one of which is Nigeria, which alone has a population nearly three times that of South Africa.
To just assume that "when the time comes, there will (magically) be a new undersea cable somewhere" is a bit silly, and certainly makes no business sense at all. If it were mine, I wouldn't go saturate my $620million 120 Gbps 25-year lifespan African connection within the first five years and then just "hope for the best" after that.
BTW, I don't think Sentech uses SAT-3 for tier-1 connection, as far as I know their backbone provider is Internet Solutions, which means satellite.
Africa *will* get more bandwidth, but the big companies will only invest it in "big-time" once the *demand* side reaches "critical mass" - in other words, they will only invest in it once Africa's economy grows larger / richer. And for this to happen, landlines must first come to places where they are scarce (i.e. most of Africa), they are still a more important basis for business development.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<br />
I for one am happy to get a (slow) 128Kb always on connection to my home at reasonable cost (say R500 a month) so the myWireless option is sufficient for me and for most people.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Yes, me too.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<br />
If you are going to stream DVDs then sure you will need megabroadband. Besides, apart from political influence this can be achieved thanks to breakthroughs by amongst others,Intel, that will revolutionise optical data transmission and reduce costs to a fraction of what they are today.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Sounds unlikely, could you provide some references? If you're talking about optical routers, the routing electronics limitations are not what limits SAT-3 to 120 Gbps.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I would still like to know what is in the 24 month contract and for example, (in clear english) what happens if my 128k myWireless only gives speeds of 4KB/sec in month 15 or so.. then can I complain? I mean if nothing changed and I didnt move?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
You could probably do nothing. I have the contract here with me, and it says: "9.3 Services are used at the customers own risk and Sentech makes no warranty and or guarantee that the Services will meet the customers requirements, be uninterrupted, complete, timely, secure or error free. Although advised that the customer is in a coverage area, there is no guarantee or warranty given against interference and or use of the goods." The "Service" is defined in terms that make no reference to bandwidth at all, just an indication that some two-way wireless communications with IP will take place.
Anyone else interpret the contract differently?
Perdition
Expert Member
Correct their backbone provider is Internet Solutions however this doesn't mean satellite. IS recently purchased 155mb/s of bandwidth on SAT-3. Sentech are definitely using it as international pings are in the region of 430ms which would be impossible if traffic went via satellite both ways.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Perdition</i>
<br />Correct their backbone provider is Internet Solutions however this doesn't mean satellite. IS recently purchased 155mb/s of bandwidth on SAT-3. Sentech are definitely using it as international pings are in the region of 430ms which would be impossible if traffic went via satellite both ways.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
OK, I stand corrected. Yes, 430ms sounds a bit low for bi-directional satellite, yet sounds a bit high for bi-directional fiber traffic.
<br />Correct their backbone provider is Internet Solutions however this doesn't mean satellite. IS recently purchased 155mb/s of bandwidth on SAT-3. Sentech are definitely using it as international pings are in the region of 430ms which would be impossible if traffic went via satellite both ways.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
OK, I stand corrected. Yes, 430ms sounds a bit low for bi-directional satellite, yet sounds a bit high for bi-directional fiber traffic.
guest2013-1
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FYI, Sentech is not using their Satelite connections as of yet.
Note, Sentech has their own satelite infrastructure and won't use IS for that.
They're currently peering through IS only, I reckon when they start getting massive demand for bandwidth they'll switch over to their satelite connections.
Lets hope the gaming goes through the cable
Note, Sentech has their own satelite infrastructure and won't use IS for that.
They're currently peering through IS only, I reckon when they start getting massive demand for bandwidth they'll switch over to their satelite connections.
Lets hope the gaming goes through the cable
gripen
Expert Member
More questions...
What happens in the instance where I have looked on the web and my exact location says "Partial" signal strength and less than 50m away it says "Good" then when I order the modem and try set it up there is no signal (hypothetical). Assuming nothing can be done to get it working then will I get a 100% refund? Whats the procedure with this?
What is the average length of time between order and approval and between approval and delivery. ie. If I fill out the web application form, how long until I get online?
I have seen talk about PPPoE. Is this only with the Ethernet cable option? also, how does the OS (say XP) see the modem, is it like a normal dialup modem or is it like a router/LAN adapter (like ISDN)?
And thus, when people speaking of "getting disconnected" in the forum.. what does this mean? Does it automatically reconnect and thus can your downloads finish if you are downloading? Is it similar to a dialup modem connect/disconnect scenario? Or does it not affect normal use? (is this when IP addresses are reassigned)
What does it cost to "book" a static IP so that your PC always has the same public IP address?
Thanks again.
What happens in the instance where I have looked on the web and my exact location says "Partial" signal strength and less than 50m away it says "Good" then when I order the modem and try set it up there is no signal (hypothetical). Assuming nothing can be done to get it working then will I get a 100% refund? Whats the procedure with this?
What is the average length of time between order and approval and between approval and delivery. ie. If I fill out the web application form, how long until I get online?
I have seen talk about PPPoE. Is this only with the Ethernet cable option? also, how does the OS (say XP) see the modem, is it like a normal dialup modem or is it like a router/LAN adapter (like ISDN)?
And thus, when people speaking of "getting disconnected" in the forum.. what does this mean? Does it automatically reconnect and thus can your downloads finish if you are downloading? Is it similar to a dialup modem connect/disconnect scenario? Or does it not affect normal use? (is this when IP addresses are reassigned)
What does it cost to "book" a static IP so that your PC always has the same public IP address?
Thanks again.
I can try and answer these. As far as the connection in windows XP, the modem has it's own seperate dialer, it can be set to automaticaly reconnect if disconnected and it seems to work fairly well.
As to the problem with having no signal, i asked a help desk person at sentech the same question, apparantly if you bring it to their attention within 7 days of reciveing the modem (could be 14 days, not quite sure) they will send a techie out to your house to investigate. If the modem and the packiging is all there i understood that a full refund would be given. Don't take my word for this, rather phone the help desk and confirm this information before applying, i'd hate for to apply and try this and they tell you to get stuffed !
As to the problem with having no signal, i asked a help desk person at sentech the same question, apparantly if you bring it to their attention within 7 days of reciveing the modem (could be 14 days, not quite sure) they will send a techie out to your house to investigate. If the modem and the packiging is all there i understood that a full refund would be given. Don't take my word for this, rather phone the help desk and confirm this information before applying, i'd hate for to apply and try this and they tell you to get stuffed !
gripen
Expert Member
Thanks. Any idea about the other questions?
So, to XP does it look like a normal modem then? Which would probably mean that every time you disconnect/reconnect you get a new IP address...
BTW did you have any hassles when signing up?
So, to XP does it look like a normal modem then? Which would probably mean that every time you disconnect/reconnect you get a new IP address...
BTW did you have any hassles when signing up?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sliver</i>
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As to the problem with having no signal, i asked a help desk person at sentech the same question, apparantly if you bring it to their attention within 7 days of reciveing the modem (could be 14 days, not quite sure) they will send a techie out to your house to investigate. If the modem and the packiging is all there i understood that a full refund would be given. Don't take my word for this, rather phone the help desk and confirm this information before applying, i'd hate for to apply and try this and they tell you to get stuffed !
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I just called the help desk to confirm, they said that if you cannot a signal within 14 days on your stand, then you're "more than welcome" to cancel the contract, but you will lose the R570 (R500 + R70 delivery) initial fee. They also said it takes "10 working days" after submitting the contract until you get the equipment. For the contract, you need to also submit copy of ID, proof of income, and proof of residence.
<br />
As to the problem with having no signal, i asked a help desk person at sentech the same question, apparantly if you bring it to their attention within 7 days of reciveing the modem (could be 14 days, not quite sure) they will send a techie out to your house to investigate. If the modem and the packiging is all there i understood that a full refund would be given. Don't take my word for this, rather phone the help desk and confirm this information before applying, i'd hate for to apply and try this and they tell you to get stuffed !
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I just called the help desk to confirm, they said that if you cannot a signal within 14 days on your stand, then you're "more than welcome" to cancel the contract, but you will lose the R570 (R500 + R70 delivery) initial fee. They also said it takes "10 working days" after submitting the contract until you get the equipment. For the contract, you need to also submit copy of ID, proof of income, and proof of residence.
gripen
Expert Member
Thats not really fair. You lose R570. You paid the money and what did you get? I can understand the (exorbitant) R70 but the R500? What is that for anyway? to create a username and password? And then they can just delete it if you never manage to login anyway.
Does anyone have a copy of the infamous contract? Or do you sign and NDA.. wouldnt be surprised.. considering that they dont refund you fully if you dont get what they said you would..
Okay since they are a tad unreasonable, isnt it only fair then to expect them to send technician to check if I can indeed receive the service before expecting me to pay R570 for nothing?
Does anyone have a copy of the infamous contract? Or do you sign and NDA.. wouldnt be surprised.. considering that they dont refund you fully if you dont get what they said you would..
Okay since they are a tad unreasonable, isnt it only fair then to expect them to send technician to check if I can indeed receive the service before expecting me to pay R570 for nothing?
Greedyflyza: You mentioned that you live in hatfield PTA. I also live in hatfield (and i happen to have a "GOOD" signal).
Would you be interested in sharing a 256K line with a wireless hotspot (i.e. if we live close enough to each other)?
Let me know where you live, and i'll determine if this could be a viable option (i'm on the corner of Duncan and South)
Would you be interested in sharing a 256K line with a wireless hotspot (i.e. if we live close enough to each other)?
Let me know where you live, and i'll determine if this could be a viable option (i'm on the corner of Duncan and South)
guest2013-1
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you cheap bastards!
What? ....it's perfectly legal, and greedyflyza mentioned that he might have problems getting Credit from Sentech, as he has a student salary. I'm willing to help the guy out and now i'm a cheap samaritan? geez!
gripen
Expert Member
Not a bad idea. I may be a tad too far. Burnett Street near Virgin Active.
I would like 128K at least so if we could somehow split it it may work.
Strangely I have thought of doing this with a friend nearby but how do you split 256 = 128 + 128 while keeping LAN speeds in the Mbps?
If I dont get credit etc then thats what I will do so I will keep you posted!
Thanks for the offer.
So your signal is good. Thats good news :[
]
I would like 128K at least so if we could somehow split it it may work.
Strangely I have thought of doing this with a friend nearby but how do you split 256 = 128 + 128 while keeping LAN speeds in the Mbps?
If I dont get credit etc then thats what I will do so I will keep you posted!
Thanks for the offer.
So your signal is good. Thats good news :[
]Well, if you're interested let me know by sending me mail, and we can discuss the rest away from the forum (as we'll be exchanging some personal information that we don't want everybody on the forum to have access to)
In the meantime, i will see if i can find a way to set up such a big hotspot (with special antennas and the works).
Should we decide that this is a viable option, i will set up a linux server using squid proxy to do the bandwith throttling. The concept comes down to having 128Kb (out of the 256K) guaranteed, and the other 128K can be "burst" into when i'm not online. The hotspot will be a 11Mbps or maybe 54Mbps LAN, with your PC just connecting directly to the Linux Gateway Server.
drop me a mail and we can discuss the rest....
P.S. To other forum members: i will post a topic on this forum if we do this and it works.
In the meantime, i will see if i can find a way to set up such a big hotspot (with special antennas and the works).
Should we decide that this is a viable option, i will set up a linux server using squid proxy to do the bandwith throttling. The concept comes down to having 128Kb (out of the 256K) guaranteed, and the other 128K can be "burst" into when i'm not online. The hotspot will be a 11Mbps or maybe 54Mbps LAN, with your PC just connecting directly to the Linux Gateway Server.
drop me a mail and we can discuss the rest....
P.S. To other forum members: i will post a topic on this forum if we do this and it works.