Pre-owned vs Piracy

[doobiwan]

Why is this not an issue with DVDs and books?

With Books it's always been the case, but it's always about the money. An author that writes a book has one salary to pay - their own, and can take a few months to years to complete a book. Books also have a reasonably long shelf life.

DVD's:
DVD's are a "play once" medium, if you buy it you typically want to keep it otherwise the "trade/preplayed" market is effectively covered by the rental market, from which copyright holders to get payback (official rental DVD's are a lot more expensive than retail ones) This was recently help up in court when SK/Nu Metro took Mr Video to court for bringing in region 1 DVD's and they won. DVD's are also a secondary market, the bulk of a movies earnings come from the theatrical release.

For games there is no such "rental protection." Also games - being technology dependant have no life span, their earnings windows is incredibly small. They also cost a heck of a lot to make, you're looking almost at bigger than movie budgets these days. Also being a lot more niche than movies the sales base is smaller so in order to make margins prices have to be high.

Which is a viscious cycle - Gamers then can't afford all the games they want to play so look to trade and rental to play everything they want.

 

[0rk0]

I agree here and I think the games companies would be sort of okay with that, like game clubs - split the cost amongst friends if you can't afford a lot of games. But then it's just one or two of you.

the problem is a store like Gamestop that can and emphasises recycling a single copy dozens of times - they offer hectic incentives for new games, like when GTA4 was released - if you brought it back within a week they gave you something like 80-90% of the full retail price for it!

That's downright evil and I can't condone it.

I don't agree with you on this one. If you take the car example again... if you only want to drive it for a week and trade it in to get a better model then it's your choice. They already made their money initially. They should make a car that you want to keep and be proud of.

Same in gaming...if you can finish a game within a week, then I'm sorry, but it's not worth the R700-R800 bucks. By adding additional content and being a great game to start with, that's what's going to solve this problem. I still own my PS1 final fantasy games and are looking for the PS1 Anthology colletion. That is how games should be made...

People like Gamestop shouldn't be blamed because devs fail to make a game which cannot hold your attention or that you are prepared to part with...

 

[saffakanera]

Bottom line: If you buy second hand YOU ARE A PIRATING THIEF! Im off to the local BTgames to spit on people buying second hand games.

Goodbye.

/sarcasm

I hope some of you got the vibe I have to deal with EVERY time on the net because I openly admit to piracy. So many sheep out there...

 

[wizzard]

I think the basic problem here is that although the game companies are complaining about loss of revenue because of second hand games, its the same argument made about piracy. They are directly equating 1 second hand sale to 1 loss of revenue. Often this isn't the case, there are alot of people who, if they can't get the game cheap, just won't bother to get the game.

 

[doobiwan]

I don't agree with you on this one. If you take the car example again... if you only want to drive it for a week and trade it in to get a better model then it's your choice. They already made their money initially. They should make a car that you want to keep and be proud of.

Same in gaming...if you can finish a game within a week, then I'm sorry, but it's not worth the R700-R800 bucks. By adding additional content and being a great game to start with, that's what's going to solve this problem. I still own my PS1 final fantasy games and are looking for the PS1 Anthology colletion. That is how games should be made...

People like Gamestop shouldn't be blamed because devs fail to make a game which cannot hold your attention or that you are prepared to part with...

I agree on the bolded part, but not so much the rest. My contention is this - It's a particular type of experience that developers are selling at the moment that are struggling - basically linear story driven single player games, which people enjoy. To change the game to something with more longevity you fundamentally change the gametype, so you may lose that type of game forever, like good old quests

As for the car analogue, it's a bit different, everyone who owns a car technically requires a car at all times, ie if you sell it you have to buy a new one. By comparison as an extreme example, theoretically Every person in a town can play the same copy of a game if everyone takes turns, or the P2P trade scene in which money made selling games is usually spent on more games to the developers secondary benefit.

Where I criticize someone like Gamestop it's that, it's not like a games club, or trade. Every time that game comes back into Gamestop (or BT games, or games exchange) They Make a 50% "free profit" on the resale of the game. A short story game, which turns around 10-12 times means they make 600% profit on the game, but not a penny going to the developer. Worse, all that money gets ploughed straight into their profits and goes to shareholders, who I guarantee don't buy that many games ...


Thinking about it I reckon they introduce "play once" games. Drop the price to $40, and the entire game is unlocked with a code in the box. Without it the game runs in demo mode - then:
1. It means you can buy a game and try it out, if it sucks you can return it to the store with the key intact getting a full refund.
2. You can sell the disc or give it to a mate, if they like the game they can buy just the key for $30-$40.

If you don't want that, then you make the "collectors - open play" $80.

 

[wizzard]

Speaking about the car analogy, I'm not sure you can actually compare the two. In my mind I see intellectual property and physical property as 2 different types of commodities since they have different manufacturing procedures and things like the car industry have other incomes like making you come back for services (As mentioned before thats probably the best solution for games then)

 

[Xyber]

Where I criticize someone like Gamestop it's that, it's not like a games club, or trade. Every time that game comes back into Gamestop (or BT games, or games exchange) They Make a 50% "free profit" on the resale of the game. A short story game, which turns around 10-12 times means they make 600% profit on the game, but not a penny going to the developer. Worse, all that money gets ploughed straight into their profits and goes to shareholders, who I guarantee don't buy that many games ...

Yeah, thats not cool. Them making so much profit from the game again. I'm ok with the guys who will give you say R270 for the pre-played game if they gonna sell it for R300 again. Kinda act like a middle man and taking the risk no one might come along to take it. I much rather trade or sell directly to fellow gamers.

 

[0rk0]

My personal feel is that we are being ripped off and the devs want to complain about them not getting their money....well they have to live with it since we don't get our money's worth....

Make a great game and I'll happily pay the R700 bucks. Then we both win.
But what they do is create something horrible and expect us to pay R700 for it. They should be glad that we bought it at all, although second hand, which enabled another gamer to buy something hopefully better and new.

If the games where priced right for what you were getting Gamestop won't be giving as much money back. Getting R40 back on something that went for R50, one might actually consider keeping the game, cause that R40 won't get you far, especially when you come to a point where you feel the game is worth more than what you are getting back. This is where longevity comes in and downloadable content should solve some of this.

Downloadable content and games is the future in anycase and should solve this problem automaticaly...

No printing of manuals, no packaging and more secure....

 

[0rk0]

Off Topic...

@ doobiwan

"...like good old quests ...." Originally Posted by doobiwan

You should check out the following sites if you haven't already:

http://www.infamous-adventures.com/index.php
and
http://www.agdinteractive.com/


Just wish they would bring out the Ps3 version of Sam N Max Season1already....

I gave up on PC gaming sometime back...just hoping Blizzard will follow EA and join the consoles...

 

[Kerrrang!]

I don't really agree with the "the developers should give us more bang for our buck, therefore we pirate" analogy. That's what a little thing called "reviews' are for. And they're quite comprehensive really, even mentioning things like lifespan, graphics, gameplay, longevity and such. *sighs* The interwebz is amazing.

 

[Oculate]

Bottom line: If you buy second hand YOU ARE A PIRATING THIEF! Im off to the local BTgames to spit on people buying second hand games.

Goodbye.

I buy second hand games due to:

a. I didnt have the money at the time, waiting a couple months when i could afford it.
b. the orginal wasnt available, but the 2nd hand copy was

On that note. I disagree 2nd games is piracy. Someone paid the initial cost (R700) so the devs got their money, and someone else is paying a discounted cost, but is still paying for the game. Piracy is imo like going to a lan and copying Mercs2 and playing it. No cost involved. Tbh its cheating the devs by avoiding the cost

 

[Zenbaas]

I buy second hand games due to:

a. I didnt have the money at the time, waiting a couple months when i could afford it.
b. the orginal wasnt available, but the 2nd hand copy was

On that note. I disagree 2nd games is piracy. Someone paid the initial cost (R700) so the devs got their money, and someone else is paying a discounted cost, but is still paying for the game. Piracy is imo like going to a lan and copying Mercs2 and playing it. No cost involved. Tbh its cheating the devs by avoiding the cost

But that money still doesn't go to the Dev's, same as piracy. (if you classify it as that)

 

[Oculate]

But that money still doesn't go to the Dev's, same as piracy. (if you classify it as that)

True, and imo it should

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

well I'm renting soon .... only gonna buy a 'big' title every odd month ..... all due to cost, the greedy fsckers.

 

[doobiwan]

On that note. I disagree 2nd games is piracy. Someone paid the initial cost (R700) so the devs got their money, and someone else is paying a discounted cost, but is still paying for the game. Piracy is imo like going to a lan and copying Mercs2 and playing it. No cost involved. Tbh its cheating the devs by avoiding the cost

To an extent I'd agree as I think most of us do. If games are sold between players, the guy that spent R700 originally is most likely going to spend that money on more games, that's what the devs haven't worred about it for so many years, but in the last 2-3 years, corporates are exploiting this for their own profit and no-one is winning except stores that do nothing.

 

[0rk0]

I don't really agree with the "the developers should give us more bang for our buck, therefore we pirate" analogy. That's what a little thing called "reviews' are for. And they're quite comprehensive really, even mentioning things like lifespan, graphics, gameplay, longevity and such. *sighs* The interwebz is amazing.

I don't know if this was aimed at me (since I was the last comment before your reply) , but I NEVER said "therefore lets pirate".

Therefore we buy secondhand...

The owner of the original copy has the right to play it and re-sell it.
The license to use travel with the original disc...

 

[Kerrrang!]

@OrkO: not aimed at you man, something someone mentioned a couple o pages back.
I also buy second-hand, although 90% of the games i buy are brand new.

I think the distinction, for however long you (not OrkO, just the peeps in general) want to debate it, is that piracy is illegal, the second-hand market ain't. Ignore the grey areas in between and that is unfortunately what you're stuck with.

 

[0rk0]

If only one person in the whole of South Africa buy's a game and it is used by the whole nation, for arguments sake, by the means of re-selling , then it only means the game was priced to high from the begining.

If they lower costs, more people will say, "I'll rather buy the game and get it now, than waiting 5 months for it".
They are just sour cause gamers have learnt to be patient and not react to the hype that worked for them in the past.

They are only entiteled to the return on the sale of a "licence to use "and that licence travel with the original disc, whether new or secondhand.
They aren't entitled to return on "could have been sales."

So it's their problem to deal with...

 

[0rk0]

@OrkO: not aimed at you man, something someone mentioned a couple o pages back.
I also buy second-hand, although 90% of the games i buy are brand new.

I think the distinction, for however long you (not OrkO, just the peeps in general) want to debate it, is that piracy is illegal, the second-hand market ain't. Ignore the grey areas in between and that is unfortunately what you're stuck with.

100%, no worries, just wanted to be clear that I'm not encouraging pirating

 

[Dohc-WP]

I think the distinction, for however long you (not OrkO, just the peeps in general) want to debate it, is that piracy is illegal, the second-hand market ain't. Ignore the grey areas in between and that is unfortunately what you're stuck with.

+1 i have to agree with u on that