Programmers/Designers Needed!

[Solitude]

The responses from devs in this thread are not unusual. Sadly however, they are indicative of the fundamental problem with young professionals in our country.

I'm sure that most if not all of the devs who have responded in this thread will feel some level (I'm willing to stick my neck out and say: probably a high degree in many cases) of dissatisfaction with their current working conditions.

Dissatisfaction is the zygote of change, without it everything stays the same. When you become dissatisfied, your heart is telling you to take action, you should learn to listen instead of shouting it down.

What is downright odd is that disproportionate number of of those same people are willing to take some risk and make some effort toward changing that situation.
<snip>

I'm a developer and I won't be helping out the original poster. I will also tell you the main reasons why other developers won't code for the OP.
1. Developers who are currently in full time jobs won't take the offer. Because:
1. a) If they are anything like me then they are tired after a day of hard work. Our time is valuable. Many of us do not want to continue coding at home. We have families. We need to study. We've got a life.
1. b) Those of us who do continue coding after work do so on our own projects. Why should I work on someone else's project when I've got my own ideas? I would rather work on something that I'm passionate about. And I tell you now, all developers I know have ideas that they would like to see out in the world.
1. c) The only reason to work for someone else, after hours, is for money. Or some other substantial reward. Even then most of us won't take the job. We work during the day and most of us are paid well.

2. Developers who are currently jobless won't help since they need money to survive. They will be looking for a job that pays. This is logical. A promise does not bring food to the table.

The only people I can think of who may help you out OP, are students looking for experience. Even then it's unlikely.

 

[SlinkyMike]

I actually was going to respond to individual points in your post but there is too much of it.

First, I'm not helping out because I'm currently engaged in my own project which I work on after hours. I'm writing a game which I plan to form a company to release to Android and PC (runs on Java so it will run on Linux, Windows and Mac - if Steve Jobs' ghost approves). Even if I wanted to help, I dont have the time.

Second, you say that people who say no to this are just going to keep receiving orders from up top instead of starting their own business, but then, how is this different? I would still be taking orders and ideas from him, and in return he offers shares in the project. Shares. Ie maybe 10%, maybe 40%, who knows?

But you know why I'm most pessimistic? Because I used to do EXACTLY what this guy did here - post an idea that I dont have the skills or finance to develop, and hope someone else is keen. That is not taking ownership of my destiny or vision, that is not forging a new path, that is hoping someone else will do all the hard work while I provide the "vision".

So dont come here and say everyone who turns this down likes life the way it is and likes being a monkey in a cage. We dont. We've just had enough experience to know how much work it takes to get a project off the ground, and to know that what this guy is asking for and offering is completely unreasonable. So you're making a strawman to say those not interested are caged animals.

EDIT: In particular...


Go tell Notch he doesnt have the vision or charisma to make Minecraft succeed. And go back in time and tell Linus Torvalds not to bother - no one will ever use his Linux. And also go back in time and tell Larry Page and Sergey Brin to not bother with starting Google - I mean they can just use Yahoo or whatever. Larry Page and Sergey Brin are both computer scientists and thus NERDS in case you havent figured out, and they, and no one else, founded Google. Even Eric Schmidt wrote software - he wrote lex!

All software developers, all made it somehow. For a tech startup, marketers are less valuable than developers. Right now, he needs a product to sell. No way around that.

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, you have pointed out a few very good examples.

Tell me: if you are engaged in your own project that you hope one day to present to the world, why all of the negativity and venom in your posts in this thread? I'd sincerely expect you to empathise and show some support, even if it is just from behind a keyboard somewhere. It's weird.

Young? Mmmm - you raise a few valid observations but make one or two assumptions that are not necessarily correct. As a young professional, I joined a startup because they needed a web developer. Promises were made. It was 1996.

Those promises were broken, not only by the company but indeed the industry. The Dot really bombed. If I was 20 again and lived in Cape Town, I actually would take the OP up but he has restricted himself geographically (obviously for acceptable reasons) to a city that simply fails to show real entrepreneurial spirit historically.

I do hope some younger AND OLDER devs with time on their hands (like you say, wasted on fruitless pursuits) at least take time out to think about the proposal. To investigate the potential. To dismiss it if it sounds like crap or to embrace it if they think they can make it work. I just think that the views expressed here indicate more the suspicion of a generation of devs that have heard it all before than a lack of entrepreneurial spirit.

And trust me, we have heard it all before.

Very good points. There are certainly several assumptions in my post, many of which will be wrong. The point is/was to steer the discussion into a more constructive direction, I'm mildly satisfied with my success in that area, so far.

Don't forget that no matter what your age or how jaded you may have become, working on a project of your own choosing, using your skillset along with a rag-tag group of tear-aways is one of the truly great experiences we can share as human beings. Sometimes you just have to shift your values to get a finer focus on what the real payoff is.

I'm a developer and I won't be helping out the original poster. I will also tell you the main reasons why other developers won't code for the OP.
1. Developers who are currently in full time jobs won't take the offer. Because:
1. a) If they are anything like me then they are tired after a day of hard work. Our time is valuable. Many of us do not want to continue coding at home. We have families. We need to study. We've got a life.
1. b) Those of us who do continue coding after work do so on our own projects. Why should I work on someone else's project when I've got my own ideas? I would rather work on something that I'm passionate about. And I tell you now, all developers I know have ideas that they would like to see out in the world.
1. c) The only reason to work for someone else, after hours, is for money. Or some other substantial reward. Even then most of us won't take the job. We work during the day and most of us are paid well.

2. Developers who are currently jobless won't help since they need money to survive. They will be looking for a job that pays. This is logical. A promise does not bring food to the table.

The only people I can think of who may help you out OP, are students looking for experience. Even then it's unlikely.

This is a perfect example of a 0 on the entrepreneurial spectrum. There is NOTHING wrong with that, different strokes... just don't be down on people who do believe that they can do something special, he isn't planning on hurting anyone, we all stand to gain from his success - we need people like that. In our country, in our world.

 

[GreGorGy]

Very good points. There are certainly several assumptions in my post, many of which will be wrong. The point is/was to steer the discussion into a more constructive direction, I'm mildly satisfied with my success in that area, so far.

Don't forget that no matter what your age or how jaded you may have become, working on a project of your own choosing, using your skillset along with a rag-tag group of tear-aways is one of the truly great experiences we can share as human beings. Sometimes you just have to shift your values to get a finer focus on what the real payoff is.

Indeed. Like I said, If I was younger and in Cape Town. I am self-employed and could easily take a month out for yet another sabbatical but TBH I couldn't take CT. So I will reiterate to those devs that are frustrated or bored or wasting time on Facebook - sacrifice an hour. If it works, it works. If not, they lost 60 minutes. Hell, I lost 60 minutes last night when I went to bed an hour early. I feel just fine about it.

 

[Ancalagon]

There will ALWAYS be exceptions, you have pointed out a few very good examples.

Tell me: if you are engaged in your own project that you hope one day to present to the world, why all of the negativity and venom in your posts in this thread? I'd sincerely expect you to empathise and show some support, even if it is just from behind a keyboard somewhere. It's weird.

So show me a tech based startup that was started by a marketing or business guy and not a developer? Can you think of one? Hell, I thought of another excellent example - Facebook! Created by a guy who was hired to create something similar, and stole the idea! The rest is history! Bottom line is, marketing types are just no use to a brand new tech startup. They are of use to a tech startup that already has a product and wants to sell it, yes. Otherwise maybe you can find me some examples where a dev guy wasnt necessary?

I'm showing my venom because I see the OP as being passive and hoping other people will step in to provide the skills he so desperately needs. It doesnt sound like he has talked to one about his idea yet, so he doesnt even know if its feasible with modern technology. Or maybe its not legal? I dont know. The OP's post is a passive seeking for people who can help him, instead of forging ahead and doing things himself.

 

[SlinkyMike]

So show me a tech based startup that was started by a marketing or business guy and not a developer? Can you think of one?

You are missing my point, maybe I haven't been clear enough... I am saying that ALL of the roles/personalities are necessary. I am saying that it is through collaboration that we humans achieve amazing things. The OP wants to collaborate on his idea - I don't accept that that is worthy of the scorn you have heaped on him.

Bottom line is, marketing types are just no use to a brand new tech startup.

You are dead wrong on this one. The common wisdom supports my position that ALL of the pieces need to be there. Also: you are living in a fools paradise if you think that building a company on your own will be easier than doing so as part of a team. The simple fact is that doing something like this is hard. So hard that the bad times can be too much for one person to bear - as human beings we need that all important 'esprit de corps' to get us through those patches... not to mention having people to celebrate the victories with!

It's like I said originally: you seem very embittered and closed off. This is not good. Open your mind and your heart a little, I believe that only good things will come of it.

 

[Ancalagon]

You are missing my point, maybe I haven't been clear enough... I am saying that ALL of the roles/personalities are necessary. I am saying that it is through collaboration that we humans achieve amazing things. The OP wants to collaborate on his idea - I don't accept that that is worthy of the scorn you have heaped on him.

Yes - once you have a product. I dont have a product, I have unfinished code and no artwork or sound. You know what I need right now? 3d modellers and sound engineers.

You seem to be missing my point(s). First is, to start a tech start up, tech skill is more important than anything else. In the old days, maybe you could get by with an idea provided you could show a venture capitalist that you had the skills to realize that idea. Nowadays... not so much. You need tech skill to start such a company more than anything else - the one thing this dude lacks. He shouldnt be offering shares, he should be offering joint ownership of the resulting company. It is that critical. As all of the examples I've given illustrated, they were all, without exception, started by technical people and still made it. Yes, they hired marketers and all that.

You are dead wrong on this one. The common wisdom supports my position that ALL of the pieces need to be there. Also: you are living in a fools paradise if you think that building a company on your own will be easier than doing so as part of a team. The simple fact is that doing something like this is hard. So hard that the bad times can be too much for one person to bear - as human beings we need that all important 'esprit de corps' to get us through those patches... not to mention having people to celebrate the victories with!

It's like I said originally: you seem very embittered and closed off. This is not good. Open your mind and your heart a little, I believe that only good things will come of it.

Common wisdom? What common wisdom? Every single tech startup I know was started by someone technical! There are no exceptions! Your common wisdom is wrong!

...in the case of starting up. However, once a business is running, those kinds of roles become essential to fill. I know that. But he hasnt started anything, or got a product, ergo he is of zero use to a tech company! He would be a waste of salary until they had something he could sell.

Once I have a product, yes I will need to hire other people, some of whom will be soft skills people. I'll need people to handle marketing and customer support, HR I will outsource unless the company grows very large, which I doubt. But you see, for now, I only need me. When my game has advanced to the stage that it looks like it might actually see the light of day, I will hire people to help me with art assets and sound, and probably additional coding. I dont want to spend any money unless I am 100% certain that the game will be released. Anyway, point being, what need do I have for a marketer right now? There is no game, there is nothing to take screenshots of, there is no artwork to post, there are only gameplay concepts and a half finished game engine. Tell me what am I going to do with a marketer? Must I pay his salary for him to do nothing all day? Maybe he can play Tetris - he cant even play my game since it isnt even in alpha state yet.

Thats my point. Right now, a marketer would be a drain on my resources without offering any benefits. In future, yes a marketer will be necessary. Any fool knows that a business needs more than one person to succeed. But for a tech startup, they only require tech skills. Maybe a business minded person could attract investment, thats it. Otherwise they will sit twiddling their thumbs all day.

I'm not bitter. I'm frustrated that this guy seems to think the world is going to provide him a with a developer to make his dreams come true. And here you are saying what a fantastic opportunity it is, and berating us all for being close minded and uptight, when you plainly dont know anything about the opportunity in question!

 

[Solitude]

This is a perfect example of a 0 on the entrepreneurial spectrum. There is NOTHING wrong with that, different strokes... just don't be down on people who do believe that they can do something special, he isn't planning on hurting anyone, we all stand to gain from his success - we need people like that. In our country, in our world.

Explain then, the entrepreneurial spectrum or give a link to a site that explains it.

I wasn't even going to reply to this thread until I saw your post. The original poster can do what he want. In fact I hope he gets someone to help him out. I gave logical reasons as to why us developers aren't interested.

Your post made me reply to this thread because it was trollish. First you say that most of the developers here are dissatisfied with their jobs. Yet there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that. In fact, I love my job. My boss is fair, the work challenging and I get paid well.

Now here comes a guy, someone we don't know, with an idea. And we are expected to jump to it? My fellow developers, that's not how things work. You either get paid for what you are doing or you do something because you love it. If you have an idea, develop it and take it to someone who can help you make it great. You've got the product. An idea is not a product... it's just that: an idea.

I take my current boss as an example. He is a developer and he created a product. He then got backing and people with the necessary skills in financial and marketing matters and he started a company. This company is doing well and it started because of his product.

We all have great ideas. Not all of them will sell, but hell we do not know if other people's ideas will either. Working on someone else's idea for no pay. Someone you don't know. That is risky. Especially for something that may not work. Rather spend that time on something you love.

As for the original poster. I think it's great that you have an idea and I hope your idea bears fruit. But I have seen developers getting burned because of startups like this. We are cynical, with reason.

And for some guy to say that earning a salary is like living in a cage, well that just makes me angry. Because you can earn a salary, live your life and yet achieve greatness. You can work on your own project, or in a team. But do so with people whom you trust and know or do so for money. I can't believe that a guy came on here and say you have a narrow mindset if you do that.

if devs were able to perform all of the taks necessary to launch a succesful startup/product thewn WTF don't they?

That sentence made me the angriest because it's based on a lie. That developers don't launch successful startups. And yet, many of the successful web and software based startups that I've seen were started by developers.

Go troll somewhere else SlinkyMike.

 

[Gnome]

SlinkyMike: Why don't you develop for Vendetta?

@Vendetta: PM SlinkyMike, he wants to work for promises.

 

[Ipwn 4]

Lol everyone is raising sone very valid points here which I didn't even think of. The OP mentioned he had an idea and a complete plan behind that, but regardless of the time spent working on this plan, the devs willing to help him out on this offer will be starting the SDLC from scratch, which isn't going to happen over night.

Then there is the mention of databases being used, that is going to require an equal amount of planning and designing for optimal performance( I'm assuming the project will require some algorithms to optimize the performance )

The fact that this project will hopefully go through the complete SDLC I think the payment will need to be rather substantial. Like if said before, don't restrict yourself to Capetown, make use of services such as Skype and broaden your search.

I have pm'ed the OP and offered my services as I am still a student and more interested in it for fun, but for the previous posts I have realized that it isn't quite as simple as "just helping out..." , I'm not going to be happy if I help create the next best thing since google and only get a percentage of the profits.

Ancologan is very correct in his logic, if you are creating a company that will revolve around a single development, the developers of the project arn't going to settle for much less than shares of the company. I think once all the red tape has been removed around this alot more knowledgeable dev's will start offering their services.

@OP, I would suggest getting a senior dev to atleast look at your idea, if someone can confirm that the project is atleast technically feasible, the offer would be alot more tempting.

Just my 2c

 

[Ancalagon]

The thing is that when you start working in software, you understand just how much information is in an actual program than the idea for it.

I mean put it this way - I write a one page idea for a game. That could probably easily get turned into a 50-100 page design document for the game. If you had to document it thoroughly. And I mean this design document would have to be produced by someone knowleadgeable in software design to accurately convey the ideas and also estimate the amount of work involved. And even that document would be lacking in detail compared to the code itself - you would start coding something and realize there is a better way of doing it, etc etc etc.

I'm not saying you need to follow the strict SDLC, or that you need a design expert and a software expert and an engineering expert etc etc etc. All I'm saying is that, each stage a project goes through on its way to becoming live code, its like the amount of... information multiplies by 10. A simple idea becomes a large document becomes a huge project. So I hope the OP understands why I say that if you have a plan and an idea, you are maybe 10% done. If you had a very detailed design document including technical design describing possible technologies and system components, entities, processes and data storage, then you are maybe 40% of the way there.

So there is a LOT for a software developer/designer/engineer to do.

 

[Ancalagon]

Here are some good articles on the subject. They are relate to game design ideas, but the principle is the same. You have an idea which you think could make money but you dont have the skills or finance to get it made. You better have the connections!

In particular (quoted from the first link):

I have heard that a friend of Frank Herbert (author of Dune) asked Herbert to author the friend's idea and split the profits 50/50. Herbert refused, even though the guy was a good friend -- Herbert's reply was basically that ideas are easy; the writing is the hard part.

 

[Ipwn 4]

What makes this hard to judge is the lack of knowledge we have about the project and the lack of knowledge the OP has regarding development, there is no one present with the knowledge to define the exact size of the project. Would help if he was in the position to atleast say this will require someone to volunteer for 100hrs.

If the OP has enough faith in his idea, he should rather learn to develop first (read up on project management to start with, then start looking at basic logic and ultimately just Finnish a [insert oo visual programming language here] for dummies book), that will put him in a much beter position.

Like someone mentioned earlier, the approach the OP has taken is also resulting in all the negative responses. We like it more when someone rocks up here with the listen, I need a developer with skills 1,2 and three to code for free for 6 months.

I'm still behind the OP though, he believes in his idea and at the end of the day it has to be something special.

 

[stevenv]

Too many long posts ...

OP, out of pure theoretical interest, are you willing to sign legally binding documents with any developer who agrees to work on the project stipulating that, in exchange for their time and effort, you will be providing them with xyz percent of the company once the product is commercially viable and generating profit?

 

[Odin Outline]

An opinion:

Sounds like it is possible your product/service/concept isn't developed enough. If you were talking to "investors" that's exactly what they do invest, not so? One has to wonder why would there be no "investor" interest if they are investors. (In an age where most things are polished yesteryear)

The lack of will to financial commitment from investors & people you know immediately sounds to me that it's either unappealing/unpolished/not viable. I don't know the details just a point which ties in with the next line.

If you have an unfinished idea, all that's going to happen is that the developers (if you get any in this manner) are going to come along enhance your idea & your left with a huge "share" debacle because now they've taken you paper work; amplified it & built it.

With a strong possibility of you loosing your own idea/concept.

At the end of the day it would just be alot easier to source funding, gather quotes, setup trade agreements etc.

I'd actually work from the quotes then move to the next position, if you are unable to do this then it is indeed an unpolished idea.