Project managers everywhere

[crackersa]

Lol

But it speaks truth...well maybe not scrum but some kind of agile

 

[Rouxenator]

I will never be able to work with project managers again - it is just too much red tape. Get a scrum wall, write out stickies, work on dev stories or support issues. It's simple, open and effective.

 

[DA-LION-619]

as stated before...

Too many Chiefs, too little indians

First time I've heard that

 

[CamiKaze]

All I can say is...What...The...Fk.

They add no F###### value whatsoever in the technical space, so they are probably only useful when talking to business... I don't know.

Luckily, I don't work with PMs or BAs anymore.

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

How do people get work done with these guys around?

It depends. A good PM can really be a blessing if they know what the fsck they're actually doing, which unfortunately most of them don't. Finding a good PM is like finding hen's teeth.

We generally ignore most them and let them schedule their meetings and send their status updates - we just don't attend, so most of the time it's the PM talking to a bunch of business people.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Well said...they stick to a manual and can't think outside of the box. And in my experiences they forget that the team is made of people.

+1 they (including myself as I've been one and still take accountability for many PM-like things) also shy away from accountability. Never understood what use finger pointing is unless it is absolutely necessary to ensure success, when the team succeeds it is everyone's success, when the team fails it is my failure.

 

[krycor]

Had my first run-in today with a project thats full of project managers. Like 20% of the staff is PMs.

All I can say is...What...The...Fk.

Gnatt charts & powerpoints everywhere yet they don't help with the actual work. Oh and they set up a time schedule that has zero room for schedule slippage. ZERO. :wtf:

Oh and like three sets of daily meetings.

How do people get work done with these guys around?

Most of the Great PMs and BSAs/BAs have been developers in the past and a tiny subset of PMs are just great at it all because they know how to make up for the lack of industry knowledge. The others range in suckage.

WRT PMs and BSAs/BAs in SA.. personally i think these are the most over paid professions in SA especially where they are career ones (they have no exp other than this and have no substantial degree to talk of) and a lot of them pretend to be technical managers too. Don't get me wrong, the role is definitely needed and is why i've studied both albeit not in that role.. but when u look at salary break down / cost for a project and you see a heavy executive layer which doesnt do much buy cost/hr is high.. someone at the top gonna get nailed when the project is reviewed (assuming they do not lose their experienced tech staff as a result).

as stated before...

Too many Chiefs, too little indians

<-- this.. if its a large international organization this will picked up in their mid year reviews

 

[crackersa]

+1 they (including myself as I've been one and still take accountability for many PM-like things) also shy away from accountability. Never understood what use finger pointing is unless it is absolutely necessary to ensure success, when the team succeeds it is everyone's success, when the team fails it is my failure.

Exactly!

I'm PMP certified but have slowly making a transition to scum master and I really enjoy agile over waterfall. What a relief that I don't need to create complex project schedules anymore.

 

[crackersa]

Most of the Great PMs and BSAs/BAs have been developers in the past and a tiny subset of PMs are just great at it all because they know how to make up for the lack of industry knowledge. The others range in suckage.

WRT PMs and BSAs/BAs in SA.. personally i think these are the most over paid professions in SA especially where they are career ones (they have no exp other than this and have no substantial degree to talk of) and a lot of them pretend to be technical managers too. Don't get me wrong, the role is definitely needed and is why i've studied both albeit not in that role.. but when u look at salary break down / cost for a project and you see a heavy executive layer which doesnt do much buy cost/hr is high.. someone at the top gonna get nailed when the project is reviewed (assuming they do not lose their experienced tech staff as a result).



<-- this.. if its a large international organization this will picked up in their mid year reviews

Don't look at salaries of PM in the states... will make you cry. 6 figures...

 

[krycor]

just remember to include the issues like 3 daily meetings in final project review notes

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Exactly!

I'm PMP certified but have slowly making a transition to scum master and I really enjoy agile over waterfall. What a relief that I don't need to create complex project schedules anymore.

The problem with agile is that you need buy-in from the entire business, not just the technical teams. It's very difficult to adopt when you're stuck with a bunch of dinosaurs from business who are used to doing things from the 70s/80s, which is more aligned to waterfall...

 

[jezzad]

This really isn't rocket science and I don't know why people insist on over complicating everything.

The formula is simple.

You need X completed by a date.

Break X into pieces and assign to the best person with the most expertise.

Get that person to commit to the deadline for each section.

Allow for testing and bug fixing.

Allow for over run of time 1 week per four weeks of build.

Have a check in once a week.

Thats it.

You can keep agile, waterfall and all the rest of the terminology.

One simple cant chart to work out who needs to do what by when.

 

[CamiKaze]

/waits for some PM to protect his/her title...

 

[krycor]

Don't look at salaries of PM in the states... will make you cry. 6 figures...

Yah but then they better deliver. I'm slowly doing PM & BSA stuff(got certs.. should go for those big certs tho PMP and CBAP stuff but those need hrs for just one role) and looking at business stuff next yr and mba. doing those with tech experience = $$ it seems but i like the tech stuff and struggling to find tech people who are good so end up doing the tech stuff too

 

[CamiKaze]

mba.

I wanted to start a separate thread for this.
Was wondering what value it adds to a Developer or for someone that really wants to stick close to the technical side of things for as long as possible.

I'm thinking of doing it next year at GIBS.

 

[scienide]

And here I am sitting with a Diploma in project management...

Think time I move out of easy job at government...

 

[HavocXphere]

Too many Chiefs, too little indians

You have no idea. Project is top priority & short notice...so they stuffed it full of the most experienced people they could get their hands on - even flew people in from other countries. Pretty much just manager grade & higher.

You have to learn to play the game though.

I know...totally used to corporate games - just not this particular one. In my day to day role the PMing aspect is always handled by people that moved up the ranks. i.e. Everyone starts off in the trenches doing technical stuff & they have absolute minimum 4 years hands on experience before they get any kind of PM related authority.

This whole PM that has no idea of the technical details is 100% new to me. I know I can deliver on my part of the project (even with a weak team), but its unsettling when the troops can sense that the people steering this ship have the map upside-down.

The discipline of a Project manager has incredible value

Agreed - I can see glimpses of value. Just not feeling that value right now. The PMs guys are actually not bad people (I like them)...but they're failing to see the importance of key technical problems & thats going to end in tears.

really wants to stick close to the technical side of things for as long as possible.

Don't stay too long - managing projects is more fun in my experience...just not used to this: This thread is more about my newly discovered hate for PMs that have a non-technical background.

I wanted to start a separate thread for this.

Feel free to hijack this one. Was just ranting anyway...

 

[Hamster]

Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Raise these as risks in the meetings. Remind them how you not doing Dev is slowing down the work.

"Oh btw guys, I think it'll better for the project if a couple of you guys get demoted or quit"

 

[Hamster]

True...maybe. but you need buy in from the whole organisation, especially the ones appointing all the managers. If they cant follow the rules it'll never work and you'll end up with "scrum" like most of the banks.

 

[Hamster]

This really isn't rocket science and I don't know why people insist on over complicating everything.

The formula is simple.

You need X completed by a date.

Break X into pieces and assign to the best person with the most expertise.

Get that person to commit to the deadline for each section.

Allow for testing and bug fixing.

Allow for over run of time 1 week per four weeks of build.

Have a check in once a week.

Thats it.

You can keep agile, waterfall and all the rest of the terminology.

One simple cant chart to work out who needs to do what by when.

Senior peraon x wjo has been working om that critical component die in a car crash. Junior person y has to take over and finish all the staff senior person x was going to do in the last week.

And go!