marine1
Honorary Master
Took me 1 year to get all my guns renewed and my competency to get through. No problems at all just time consuming. Now I am legal and I will shoot any bastard trying to redistribute my wealth 
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Proof : Gun control does NOT work
- Thread starter marine1
- Start date
marine1
Honorary Master
In this country, everyone WILL eventually be a statistic.
Disarming the citizens is a socialist policy.
1. Disarm the people
2. Crime spirals out of control
3. Increase policing and military to control the crime.
End result : a government with strong military power (typically a dictatorship) with defenseless citizens unable to stand against the government.
1. Disarm the people
2. Crime spirals out of control
3. Increase policing and military to control the crime.
End result : a government with strong military power (typically a dictatorship) with defenseless citizens unable to stand against the government.
marine1
Honorary Master
Absolutely correct.
Okay. A few points.
a) The legislation as written has provision to prevent guns being licensed by people with a record of abusive behaviour. It also provides that anyone with a restraining order against them or who commits a violent crime should have his guns confiscated by the courts. As did the previous legislation. It's not the legislation that I have fault with, but rather the implementation.
b) There are literally millions of gun owners in SA. Most of them you'd never notice or hear about. An extremely small ratio of gun-related crimes - 0.019%, statistically insignificant - involve criminal use of a licensed firearm by it's owner, and this includes intimidation, IE waving it around in traffic or threatening a partner with it. Your ratio is skewed.
c) On the specific note of family killings, police officers are far more likely to kill family members, usually with their service pistols. It's especially bad in SA, due to the high pressure faced by police officers.
d) As for police shooting anything that moves - anyone who pulls a gun on a police officer becomes a criminal instantly. No, the innocents I'm talking about are innocent bystanders and cases of sheer mistaken identity, officers firing before they are certain of their targets, etc. Police officers are the most careless gun users anywhere.
e) Victim disarmament is a valid term. If the government prevents people from having firearms, and those people become victims of crime, as some have, then what you have is disarmed victims. Moreover, anyone is a potential victim. Disarming potential victims makes them soft targets, and thus more likely victims. This is discounting the high chance of becoming a victim of violent crime in SA.
f) Firearms are used in "silent defense" - shown to deter an attacker but never fired, or only firing a warning shot, - over a million times a year in this country. Even more in America. These cases mostly go unrecorded by the police, because there's no crime to report. The police won't even open a case. Still think guns aren't worth it? Or would you rather see over a million raped, beaten or murdered former gun owners?
Now, I've been patient with you. My points so far are all verifiable. Yours unfortunately are either opinion or uninformed regurgitated gun control propaganda, with no basis in any reliable or peer-reviewed research. Please, educate yourself before arguing about gun control. Education is the finest armament, and is available to everyone.
The point made by Paul_S is perfectly valid. In the 20th century, any dictator who wished to commit genocide first enacted gun control. 170 000 000 people were killed by their own governments in the 20th century. In every country where mass killings took place, the state first enacted strict gun control in the name of controlling crime or preventing terrorism. Victim disarmament, sooner or later.
RichardP
Banned
I really could not care about your pro-gun propoganda either. If you cant handle the opposite side of the arguent, maybe you should send you gun back to the police station as being a zelout is not healthy. No-Where in my post did I quote any links... It was 100% "My Feelings". but maybe your gun cant read that well
If you read my posting - word for word - I was stating that gun control was good to keep guns out the hands of lunatics. but you seem to have labeled yourself as a lunatic.
I REALLY dont care about how verifyable your postings are - I, have had personal encounters with people yeilding guns at me - and NO amount of drivel that you quote will change my view on Guns. or do you want to see the scars I have to live with every f******* day of my life ?
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Koos Custodiet
Expert Member
There are no decent, coherent arguments for gun control.
There are only emotional statements.
Fortunately the majority of people accept the soundbytes without thinking for themselves.
The ANC ideology is based on communism. Armed people are sort of difficult to control.
Koos
In the UK it is even worse than not being allowed to carry a gun. You are not allowed to carry anything with the intent to use it as a weapon. Essentially it is illegal to defend yourself.
GFSA are basically silly fanatics. They live in some delusional reality where taking guns away from ordinary people will magically keep them out of the hands of criminals.
GFSA are basically silly fanatics. They live in some delusional reality where taking guns away from ordinary people will magically keep them out of the hands of criminals.
Koos Custodiet
Expert Member
Now you're sounding like John Maytham. He doesn't know what he's talking about either...
Happens remarkably *in*frequently, actually.
And BTW half [1] the wives shot over December / January were policeman's wives -- and our nice "Gun" control [2] act does not apply to these police people.
I'd really like to know why you feel this. It's completely untrue, but it's your perception -- i.e. for you it's a truth. Why?
Sooner, if the criminals know that nobody has an effective method of defence against them.
Koos
[1] I know of six cases last Christmas. This in a country where over 50 people are killed *each* *day*. Work it out -- even if "gun" control could have prevented all six these murders, there must still be a better way of spending 2.1 billion rands on crime control rather?
[2] It's not about guns, it's about control.
Look at the stats wrt Murders (per capita) by country:
South Africa - 0.496008 per 1,000 people (#2)
UK - 0.0140633 per 1,000 people (#46)
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
I wouldn't even consider carrying in the UK, or the states either, because its just not necessary.
RichardP
Banned
My original post
But some gun-yeilding fellow gentlemen cant see what I wrote.
In other words.. it does happen.... but not too often justifies itself.
If Gun Control takes a gun out of the hands of 1 (one) psyco, that to me justifies itself. How much is one persons life worth? If someone close to you is killed in an act of rage by a 'legitimate' owner - how much is that worth financially? I bet you will say that no amount of money is worth it.
Why not ban guns totally... and whats left are the criminals.Unfortanately it doesnt work with a very savage society.
But some gun-yeilding fellow gentlemen cant see what I wrote.
In other words.. it does happen.... but not too often justifies itself.
If Gun Control takes a gun out of the hands of 1 (one) psyco, that to me justifies itself. How much is one persons life worth? If someone close to you is killed in an act of rage by a 'legitimate' owner - how much is that worth financially? I bet you will say that no amount of money is worth it.
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Koos Custodiet
Expert Member
Argh, not *that* argument again.
Sure, if gun control takes a gun out of the hands of 1 (one) psycho, with no cost to society that would be worth it.
But for each psycho that kills the wrong person, hundreds if not thousands of good people defend themselves using firearms.
You're saying it's OK for criminals to prey on more and more good (but now defenceless) people, as long as a psycho doesn't get hold of a gun.
If we disarmed the police, I know of three families who would probably [1] still have been intact after last Christmas. So why don't we disarm the police?
So maybe I'm asking you to give me good reasons why the police (who *respond* to crime) should be armed while the man in the street (who is there when the crime goes down) should be disarmed.
GFSA has *always* ducked and dived the following challenge : "Show one country in the world where increased gun control has resulted in a lowered crime rate".
Koos
[1] And I say "probably" because psychos are by definition unpredictable and quite capable of using an axe, or gassing the whole family in a car, or one of a number of other ways of killing people. If a psycho wants to take his family out, about the only way of stopping him is to make sure his wife is armed and trained...
The other side of the coin:
If you could save somebodies life, because you had a gun, would that be worth it, having the gun?
If an "unstable" person uses a gun in some act of rage, then it's the system that failed, not the act of having a gun. Such a person should not have been allowed to carry a gun in the first place, that's why there are psychological tests.
Anybody can buy a gun illegally. If you really want a gun, you will find a way of getting one. A law stating that it's illegal, will not stop a person from acquiring a gun.
nthdimension
Senior Member
How many incidents are we talking about?
- Maybe wives should own guns too?
- In cases where a wife has been shot what were the circumstances - gun being waved about during a heated argument or an attack outside an argument?
- If a motorist knows that the other driver is also likely to be armed will they still try to pull their gun?
- In road rage incidents at what point does a gun typically get drawn?
I know it was your feelings. All pro-control arguments come from feelings, because there is no data to support that gun control protects people. My post explained to you why your views cannot be reconciled with reality.
It seems to be you who cannot handle my argument. You cannot refute it. You cannot deny it, because I present the truth. All you can do is claim that I am a zealot, and berate me because I cannot accept your incorrect view of reality.
Word for word, huh? Then what about these words?
I have been labelled a lunatic because it is politically expedient, because I want the right to defend myself. Because I have the will to turn back any who would harm me or mine.
Of course you don't care how verifiable my posts are. You can't argue this point on an intellectual level, because you have no supporting data. Hence data must be rendered meaningless for your argument to hold any meaning.
You're far from the only person who's been attacked at gunpoint. I've been held up at gunpoint, stabbed and beaten. Unlike you, I don't blame the weapons. I don't try and use my experiences to justify making everyone as vulnerable as I was. Criminals are at fault, not their tools. Had I a gun on me, I would have fewer scars today. Guns didn't cause your scars or mine.
Skeptik
Banned
I was the receiving end of a road rage incident. The car behind was tailgating and I stopped suddenly for the lights. He got aggro and got out of his car and walked towards me in my car. As soon as I reached for the 9mm, he backed off and drove away. End of incident.
In 1976 Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns.
Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.
It's logical : if criminals know there are areas where people are defenseless they'll target those areas. No risk to their own skin ...
Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.
It's logical : if criminals know there are areas where people are defenseless they'll target those areas. No risk to their own skin ...
Pitbull
Verboten
I personally don't like owning a gun and the resposibility that comes with it.
The fact is that in this time in our country you can't do without it.
Fact is I'm not even going to try and renew my licence.
Get a m8 at the police to give you a receipt for handing in your weapon and keep it "un-licensed" in case of emergency. Easy as that.
And no it's not corruption it's looking after my families best interrest and protecting them against the real South Africa.
You would be amazed @ how many people have done this already. Keep your ears on the ground and out of the gutter(Government)
The fact is that in this time in our country you can't do without it.
Fact is I'm not even going to try and renew my licence.
Get a m8 at the police to give you a receipt for handing in your weapon and keep it "un-licensed" in case of emergency. Easy as that.
And no it's not corruption it's looking after my families best interrest and protecting them against the real South Africa.
You would be amazed @ how many people have done this already. Keep your ears on the ground and out of the gutter(Government)
RichardP
Banned
You really are a fascinating person. Sigmund would have a field day. I dont blame Guns... I blame GUN CONTROL!
Are there any questions when applying for a gun license about Substance abuse, Alcoholism etc?
Sorry Skeptik. Pulling a gun on a person that wants to confront you about your peceived bad driving is the way to go... There are allways 2 sides to a story... what was the other persons?
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Skeptik
Banned
Yes all that (sorry if that excludes you
). Domestic violence, any violence, medication, even if you have been sacked from your job within the past 2 years.Yep, it's often used as a pretext for a hijacking. Sometimes they bump u in the back and wait for u to exit said vehicle. I'd rather he or anyone approaching my car suspiciously see me reaching for something and assume I'm armed (even when I'm not) than have an incident with violence.
Just the other day a guy started walking towards me while I was pulling up in the drive. I immediately gestured for him to back off, gun out of sight but hand on it. These days nobody can afford to take a chance. He just wanted a job. I told him he was a fool for walking into my property at that moment and he agreed.