Proof : Gun control does NOT work

[Leitmotif]

You really are a fascinating person. Sigmund would have a field day. I dont blame Guns... I blame GUN CONTROL!

Are there any questions when applying for a gun license about Substance abuse, Alcoholism etc?

Sigmund Freud? Well, let's see what he has to say...

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.
* General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

Hmm. Oops. Looks like he's on my side. Know your stuff, or risk looking like an idiot.

As for substance abuse, etc... it bothers me that you question our rights when you don't know a damn thing. The application process includes a full background check, including criminal record check, employment history and fingerprinting.

 

[bwana]

In 1976 Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns.
Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%.

It's logical : if criminals know there are areas where people are defenseless they'll target those areas. No risk to their own skin ...

On the other hand getting a permit in New York City is very difficult and yet crime has dropped dramatically despite civilians being mostly unarmed. I'd sooner have effective policing and not have to even consider carrying.

 

[Alan]

Well all I can say is if it wasn't for gun control my neighbours would be dead.

 

[Skeptik]

I personally don't like owning a gun and the resposibility that comes with it.

The fact is that in this time in our country you can't do without it.
Fact is I'm not even going to try and renew my licence.

Get a m8 at the police to give you a receipt for handing in your weapon and keep it "un-licensed" in case of emergency. Easy as that.

And no it's not corruption it's looking after my families best interrest and protecting them against the real South Africa.

You would be amazed @ how many people have done this already. Keep your ears on the ground and out of the gutter(Government)

There's no need to do that at the moment. Your current licence will still be valid until 2009. However if you do not renew it before the due date, then after 2009 you have to hand it in.

 

[RichardP]

Sigmund Freud? Well, let's see what he has to say...



Hmm. Oops. Looks like he's on my side. Know your stuff, or risk looking like an idiot.

As for substance abuse, etc... it bothers me that you question our rights when you don't know a damn thing. The application process includes a full background check, including criminal record check, employment history and fingerprinting.

LOL! You quote a person that studied Retarded Convicts as your basis for gun control. Way to go!

YOU having a gun is proof that the background check DOESNT work. Why not just go take over Oranje in a friendly coup.
Backgound check, by its nature is your 'Past' - not What you can comit in the future. Alcoholism and substance abuse dont get recorded if you are not convicted of a related crime. I know a person who had a suicide risk get his gun license.,.. AND it was documented on his record.

It amazes me that you think owning a gun is a right.. its a Priveledge! DEAL with it. Its like claiming you have the right to take a dump on Mbeki's lawn every tuesday.

Rights... pffffffffft... I am not against guns, I am against guns in the hands of freekazoids

Justifiable homicide

A study of 743 gunshot deaths by Dr. Arthur Kellermann and Dr. Donald Reay published in The New England Journal of Medicine found that 84% of these homicides occurred during altercations in the home. Only 2 of the 743 gunshot deaths occurring in the home involved an intruder killed during an attempted entry, and only 9 of the deaths were determined by police/courts to be justified (FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48). The evidence revealed in the Kellermann study is consistent with data reported by the FBI. In 1993, there were 24,526 people murdered, 13,980 with handguns, yet only 251 justifiable homicides by civilians using handguns. (FBI, Crime in the United States: Uniform Crime Reports 1994, 1995).

 

[Freshy-ZN]

Owning a weapon such as a gun is a right. However, some people should either forego that right due to past behaviour or should have that right taken away due to current behaviour. The vast and overwhelming majority of gun owners however will be responsible enough to retain that right all their lives.

Im Pro gun control however the current implementation of it in this country causes it to become civil disarmament and gives criminals a nice comfort zone in which to work.

Gun Control should mean that:
1) The person wishing to own a firearm needs to be competent. This can be proved by means of successfully passing a firearms proficiency course.
2) The person should be refused the right to own a firearm if they have any prior convictions OR arrests for any violent behaviour.
3) The firearm should not be capable of automatic sustained fire. That is the requirment of a military firearm.
4) The firearm should be approved by a safety body to ensure that it is able to be made safe etc.
5) The person should have a suitable gun safe and the weapon should be stored in this when not being carried.

Im sure theres more but these are the basic reasonable requirements. Being able to buy a firearm does not mean I am a criminal, I want to be a criminal, I am going to shoot my wife and kids, I am going to brandish it when someone p1sses me off in the traffic. It means I might wish to hunt, shoot vermin on my farm, protect myself against those who would harm me intentionally and perhaps Im just a collector or enthusiast.

But please do not tell me because you dont want to carry one or dont like then I cant have one if I have met the requirements.

 

[Leitmotif]

LOL! You quote a person that studied Retarded Convicts as your basis for gun control. Way to go!

Actually, it was in response to your comment that Sigmund would have some inetresting things to say about me.

YOU having a gun is proof that the background check DOESNT work.

I have never committed a crime, and have no intention to do so. I have no record of drug- related offenses, have a solid employment record, and am overall a calm and reasonable person. So, the fact that I defend the right to own firearms alone makes me ineligible in your eyes to own one? Please.

Why not just go take over Oranje in a friendly coup.

Stereotyping is such fun, isn't it? Would it surprise you to learn that I'm a young urban professional, who ascribes to relatively moderate politics? Take your ad hominem elsewhere.

Alcoholism and substance abuse dont get recorded if you are not convicted of a related crime.

Which is why they interview friends, family and neighbours to catch this sort of thing. Again, speak when you know what you're talking about. You're just destroying your own credibility.

I know a person who had a suicide risk get his gun license.,.. AND it was documented on his record.

Love to proof of see this... then again, the system does slip up. Not the average gun owner's fault though.

It amazes me that you think owning a gun is a right.. its a Priveledge! DEAL with it. Its like claiming you have the right to take a dump on Mbeki's lawn every tuesday.

Rights... pffffffffft... I am not against guns, I am against guns in the hands of freekazoids

Hm. And you'd of course be the one with the right to define who is a freak? Defense of self is a right, and a firearm is an essential tool for the defense of self. Also, your example relating to the lawn is completely arbitrary and unconnected.

 

[marine1]

What you don't seem to get is that gun control only stops the legal gun ownership. Criminals will always find a way to get guns, just look at the UK.

 

[supersunbird]

Tell Gun Free SA that as soon as the criminals dont have any guns and cant get any, they can have everyone elses guns too.

Till then they can suck my hockey stick...

 

[bekdik]

Anybody can buy a gun illegally. If you really want a gun, you will find a way of getting one. A law stating that it's illegal, will not stop a person from acquiring a gun.

Which implies that many of the current license carrying gun owners will end up being criminals ....

Hmm. Based on the criminal has more rights than the victim argument, maybe that's the way to go

 

[Fudzy]

How many of you have personally or know somebody who has had life saved by a gun vs. been harmed/killed by a gun?

My tally is I know of nobody who has been saved by having a gun, yet I've known of 2 suicides using a firearm and another where a gun accident has left a guy with a limp.

 

[Nod]

How many of you have personally or know somebody who has had life saved by a gun vs. been harmed/killed by a gun?

My tally is I know of nobody who has been saved by having a gun, yet I've known of 2 suicides using a firearm and another where a gun accident has left a guy with a limp.

You can't use suicide as an example of gun misuse. If somebody wants to kill them self, they will do it with whatever is easiest/quickest.

A gun accident? So because one guy didn't follow correct procedure, or did something stupid, the rest must suffer for it?

Not very convincing examples against guns in general, IMO.

 

[noxibox]

My tally is I know of nobody who has been saved by having a gun, yet I've known of 2 suicides using a firearm and another where a gun accident has left a guy with a limp.

Gun accident?

A friend of mine hanged himself. Maybe we should ban rope. Or in this case sheets.

 

[ToxicBunny]

/me raises hand...

I know of at least 4 people who were saved because of having a gun... me and my family...

 

[noxibox]

The evidence revealed in the Kellermann study is consistent with data reported by the FBI. In 1993, there were 24,526 people murdered, 13,980 with handguns, yet only 251 justifiable homicides by civilians using handguns.

Doesn't really mean much. The US has a higher overall murder rate than many countries and this has nothing to do with gun ownership. There are other countries where gun ownership is very common, but murder rates are low.

 

[icyrus]

I don't believe either side of this debate has enough evidence to claim causality or correlation between their point of view and the often quoted stats.

This sort of thing deals with very complex datasets and a lot of other possible factors that are often not considered.

My opinion on this issue is less about crime and more about politics.

 

[Fudzy]

You can't use suicide as an example of gun misuse. If somebody wants to kill them self, they will do it with whatever is easiest/quickest.

A gun accident? So because one guy didn't follow correct procedure, or did something stupid, the rest must suffer for it?

Not very convincing examples against guns in general, IMO.

Sorry, the point I so poorly was trying to illustrate is from my experience, guns are more of a problem than a solution.

 

[Nod]

Sorry, the point I so poorly was trying to illustrate is from my experience, guns are more of a problem than a solution.

Yes, but not in any of the examples used, the gun, was the cause of the problem.

 

[Leitmotif]

I know a fair number of gun owners, and most of them have at some time or another used their firearm to defend against criminals. Only personally know three who have actually shot someone, and all of the people shot were criminals. That's a lot of suffering prevented and lives saved by legal firearms, mostly without more than a warning shot being fired.

One of my colleagues' brother is a cop. He's somehow managed to shoot himself three times accidentally, once while cleaning his gun and twice while drawing it. He's the best case against firearms ownership that I know of.

One of the strange things I realised as soon as I got a firearm and started talking about it is that a few friends and acquaintances turned out to be firearm owners as well. People you never would have noticed carry firearms every day, or keep them at home. It's truly impossible to tell. These aren't gung-ho fiends, but rather are quiet men and women who just want to be safe.

Experience varies, Fudzy. I've been held up at gunpoint, but I'm pretty sure those weren't legal guns. I've had classmates commit suicide in my teen years, and a girlfriend try to kill herself by overdosing on her mother's cancer medication. Still haven't heard of a firearm suicide in my social network.

 

[Fudzy]

Not the cause, but definitely part of the problem. But then by your logic, you could say its the flashy cars that are the problem, not the criminals trying to hijack them.