R200 bank notes

[PeterCH]

Lol .. no, the total amount of currency value printed (or created via new loans), if excessive relative to economic production, devalues your currency --- it has nothing to do with denomination size.

Bigger denominations indicate that your money is worth less - but it's a result and not a cause.

 

[markings]

According to an interview on CapeTal with one of the Reserver Bank people it is illegal for anybody to refuse legal tender in exchange for goods or services.

 

[bekdik]

Why not just courier all notes in your possession to me, denomination isn't important? I will make sure that they are good for spending.

If you don't have any notes you can EFT.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Except that works only for debt and not purchases. If you are in debt to them, i.e. they are your creditor they have to accept the R200 notes as legal tender for that debt. However, when you buy something, it's not yours until the transaction is completed -- you can't walk out of the shop with the item -- that's theft. They can refuse to complete the transaction for whatever reason - be it the R200 note you want to pay with - then they are not your creditor because you haven't incurred a debt with them. A shop may refuse any note or coin.

Nope, the sale transaction is complete and binding on both parties as soon as it is rung up. Law of offer and acceptance. Technically, the sale is complete as soon as you remove them from the shelf, as delivery has taken place, but an exception is made for supermarkets and the like, to avoid the obvious legal issues. They can't refuse your notes.

 

[PeterCH]

Nope, the sale transaction is complete and binding on both parties as soon as it is rung up. Law of offer and acceptance. Technically, the sale is complete as soon as you remove them from the shelf, as delivery has taken place, but an exception is made for supermarkets and the like, to avoid the obvious legal issues. They can't refuse your notes.

So you're telling me that you can walk out with the item after it is rung up but not yet paid for and say - put it on my tab?

Nope.

You're telling me a shop is compelled to sell you anything you ask to buy?

Nope.

To be a creditor someone has to owe you something. Banknotes can be used to repay debt according to the act quoted ('legal tender for debts public or private'). Of course if you have any law references you can quote them.

 

[Drunkard #1]

So you're telling me that you can walk out with the item after it is rung up but not yet paid for and say - put it on my tab?

Nope.

I would guess that if they let you walk out, it could be construed as them tacitly agreeing to extend credit to you.

You're telling me a shop is compelled to sell you anything you ask to buy?

Nope.

Technically, as soon as you've put it in your trolley, you've bought it; there's just the matter of paying for it. These laws aren't ideal for the modern supermarket scenario, they were developed over hundreds of years, based on a very different way of doing business.

To be a creditor someone has to owe you something. Banknotes can be used to repay debt according to the act quoted ('legal tender for debts public or private'). Of course if you have any law references you can quote them.

No references, we used Sharrock at WITS, but I couldn't find the relevant section; just going on what I remember from com law lectures. But, if a obligation to pay doesn't come into being with a product being rung up, when does it come into being? Once an invoice has been created (till slip), the seller has agreed to the sell the product. If he reneges afterwards (IE, before you've paid), he is in breach, and liable for any loses this may cause you. (Way off topic: IIRC, gold is also legal tender in SA, and so that can't be refused either.)

EDIT: I can find it, but it's the whole of chapter 3, as offer and acceptance is a key concept in com law. The supermarket exclusion is discussed on page 52 (4th edition). The debt is created as soon as the offer to purchase is accepted by the seller, IE at the till

 

[LazyLion]

Nope, the sale transaction is complete and binding on both parties as soon as it is rung up. Law of offer and acceptance. Technically, the sale is complete as soon as you remove them from the shelf, as delivery has taken place, but an exception is made for supermarkets and the like, to avoid the obvious legal issues. They can't refuse your notes.

You are correct. The law has agreed with this matter of timing in numerous cases. If they ring up the item, they have indicated a willingness to sell you the item. You have already indicated your intention to buy it... so a legal contract already exists. If they then try to withdraw from the contract, you have a right of recourse against them.

You would be well within your rights to phone the police and tell them that the shop owner is not willing to give you your goods for which you have offered payment in legal tender. His intention to withhold them can be charged as breach of contract or even theft.

 

[PeterCH]

I would guess that if they let you walk out, it could be construed as them tacitly agreeing to extend credit to you.

Has that defence every worked in a court of law?

Technically, as soon as you've put it in your trolley, you've bought it; there's just the matter of paying for it. These laws aren't ideal for the modern supermarket scenario, they were developed over hundreds of years, based on a very different way of doing business.

I don't think so. A shop seller can refuse at any stage but not once they accepted the money since by then the goods are yours. It would be interesting to see the actual blurb of text from an actual law which makes it compulsory for anyone to sell anyone anything after they agreed to a sale and before payment has been completed. I guess there is also a practical difference when larger sums and longer delays are involved - eg Company A offers to sell Company B an oil drill at a given date, payment to be made later - company B then builds an oil rig for Company C and has to deliver it by a deadline but then Company A does not deliver. Company B loses the contract due to delays caused by Company A's delay. Company B sues A for losses. This could depend on agreements and actual contract terms too.

The debt bit seems not to cover ordinary transactions. It seems to cover debt only. Perhaps it is assumed that debt includes purchases. Perhaps the phrase is archaic.

Remember also when you order something to be installed and pay off in installments - ? The company says "Installed equipment remains our property until fully paid for."

Secondly, shops are not public spaces - they are owned by someone/or something. There is a "Right of admission" sign. They could also refuse to sell to you because they can ask you to leave at any time for whatever reason.

 

[Drunkard #1]

Has that defence every worked in a court of law?

Honestly, in this country, I think it depends more on who the litigants are, and which court the case is being heard in, than the actual law. Despite the law requiring differently, I think that Anglo Ltd vs Pick 'n Pay in front of a full bench of a high court would get a very different verdict than John Doe vs Corner Cafe in front of the local magistrate, even if the circumstances were identical. In a high court the defence would hold, in front of a magistrate... flip a coin.

I don't think so. A shop seller can refuse at any stage but not once they accepted the money since by then the goods are yours.

They can refuse to sell to you until the contract of sale is valid, which occurs before you hand over money. As Garyvdh said the contract is binding as soon as the goods are rung up. Price tags and adverts are an "invitation to do business", putting the goods on the counter is an "offer to purchase" by a consumer, and ringing up the goods is an "acceptance" of that offer by seller. Everything needed to form a binding contract has been fulfilled as soon as the goods are rung up.

<rant> Do you understand? I'm looking at YOU, Sybaritic (and others). Once you've taken my order (and my money) and issued an invoice, you are LEGALLY BOUND to deliver my goods. You made the sale, the contract is binding. The next online shop that tries this "do you want to cancel" bull**** is being reported to the police for fraud.</rant>

It would be interesting to see the actual blurb of text from an actual law which makes it compulsory for anyone to sell anyone anything after they agreed to a sale and before payment has been completed. I guess there is also a practical difference when larger sums and longer delays are involved - eg Company A offers to sell Company B an oil drill at a given date, payment to be made later - company B then builds an oil rig for Company C and has to deliver it by a deadline but then Company A does not deliver. Company B loses the contract due to delays caused by Company A's delay. Company B sues A for losses. This could depend on agreements and actual contract terms too.

Too many A's and B's and contract provisions. We're discussing common law, which is formed by customs and case law, not statute. Also, I think your A's a and B's got a bit muddled somewhere in the middle.

The debt bit seems not to cover ordinary transactions. It seems to cover debt only. Perhaps it is assumed that debt includes purchases. Perhaps the phrase is archaic.

You're reading "debt" too narrowly. A debt exists for the time between the formation of the contract (ringing up) and the settlement of the debt (payment).

Remember also when you order something to be installed and pay off in installments - ? The company says "Installed equipment remains our property until fully paid for."

Contract terms. Risk and reward has passed to the buyer but ownership hasn't. Legal technicalities. Not what we're discussing here.

Secondly, shops are not public spaces - they are owned by someone/or something. There is a "Right of admission" sign. They could also refuse to sell to you because they can ask you to leave at any time for whatever reason.

Yes they can, but technically, not after they've rung up your goods.