Boomrooker
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- Apr 11, 2008
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First of all, this is >>>>not my doing<<<<
Is taken from US WoW forums by Kaloh (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5784382387&sid=1)
I usually don't participate in subjects about class balances, but I though this post was well done and it provides good points to be discussed about everyone regardless of class.
I didn't post this at suggestion forums since that has been already done by the owner of the post itself, let this be just as a good discussion counterpad for the US thread.
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Problem
Hunters' problems in Arena can be traced to the original legacy design. At first, Blizzard did not expect PvP to be a significant portion of the game. There were no plans for PvP ruleset servers - PvE and RP only. However, during original WoW Beta it quickly became obvious PvP was important to many players - so we had PvP servers upon release, later Battlegrounds, and Arenas in TBC.
Still the original design for all classes was done from a PvE standpoint - PvP came into picture too late. The kinds of spells each class has, talents, abilities and duration of thereof was all done from a PvE perspective. The transition from PvE to PvP was not a problem for most classes. Why? Because there was no difference at the most fundamental level. In PvE most classes operate on the following formula: [CLASS] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [CLASS]. When it comes to PvP formula remains the same, it's still [CLASS] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [CLASS]. Not all classes were effective in PvP at first - it has been an ongoing balancing process. But not an overly complicated one at that - precisely because for most classes fundamental operating formula is the same in PvE and PvP - so it's a matter of adjustement as many formerly weak classes saw significant improvements over time.
Hunters, however, are an exception. Why? Because our fundamental operating formula gets completely broken going from PvE to PvP. In PvE hunters operate under the following: [HUNTER] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [PET], while in PvP it's [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER]. Our class, like every other, has been designed from a PvE standpoint. But, unlike every other class, we go through a complete breakdown of our fundamental operating formula when it comes to PvP. Even though we engage in PvP, the very concept of Hunter: talents, spells, abilities, durations, etc., etc. remain PvE oriented. That is the root of our greatest weakness, the very essence of the problem with Hunters - something that has never been addressed by Blizzard or players themselves.
It is not that Hunters suck at PvP or can't l2play. The problem is that all our spells, talents and abilities have been designed with a pet in mind, using the [HUNTER] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [PET] formula. We are meant to do our damage standing still - because the underlying assumption is that we have a pet to keep our target at range. The few defensive, snare and escape abilities have not been designed or evaluated for PvP. Instead they were intended to allow our pet to regain aggro or else to allow us to take the last few points of target's life, after we have finally pulled aggro from our pet after a long fight and the the target is almost dead anyway. Our abilities have never truly been vetted from a PvP standpoint - by and large they remain PvE focused after all this time.
This is not meant to imply that hunters are not effective in in any form of PvP at all. But our effectiveness has always depended on a single factor - when PvP conditions are such that they emulate PvE - Hunters are effective. If they are not, and Hunters are forced to PvP using PvP formula like every other class - we become ineffective. In other words, if we have "virtual pets" in PvP who can "tank" allowing us to play essentially as if in PvE or if lack of pet is somehow masked - we do well. In Arenas, all such all pretentions are gone. It's highly organized and competative form of PvP, which forces Hunters to play using PvP formula exposing the fundamental flaw in Hunter design.
Suggestion
It is my suggestion that Blizzard take a fresh look at hunters in PvP and do so using the PvP operating formula: [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER]. Nothing else will adequatly address the fundamental flaw with Hunter design when it comes to PvP. We need to break free of the original PvE-oriented legacy design when it comes to PvP. There had been adjustements to hunter class; sometimes buffs and sometimes nerfs - but unlike other classes who retain the same fundamental operating formula going from PvE to PvP - our problem is not that of an adjustement, not a matter of degree or strength. No amount of adjustements can make up for the fundamental design difference between Hunters' PvE and PvP operating formulas. We need a brand new, completely unfettered look at the fundamental design of our class when it comes to PvP, our abilities, talents, our whole concept of the class needs to be vetted using [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER] PvP formula to truly address Hunter problems in Arena.
You might notice I'm not offering specific suggestions or solutions at this point - this is not because I don't have any ideas. Rather it's the opposite: I shall offer specific solutions further below. But I'm not sure if they are the correct ones, or the most effective. At this point, I just wanted to get my main point across. I'm fully confident in Blizzard ability to address Hunter community concerns, and if they can come up with better solutions then mine - all the better.
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Dammit, is a cow that shots a gun, commands the beasts and have a 1st grade engineer master!
Is taken from US WoW forums by Kaloh (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5784382387&sid=1)
I usually don't participate in subjects about class balances, but I though this post was well done and it provides good points to be discussed about everyone regardless of class.
I didn't post this at suggestion forums since that has been already done by the owner of the post itself, let this be just as a good discussion counterpad for the US thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Problem
Hunters' problems in Arena can be traced to the original legacy design. At first, Blizzard did not expect PvP to be a significant portion of the game. There were no plans for PvP ruleset servers - PvE and RP only. However, during original WoW Beta it quickly became obvious PvP was important to many players - so we had PvP servers upon release, later Battlegrounds, and Arenas in TBC.
Still the original design for all classes was done from a PvE standpoint - PvP came into picture too late. The kinds of spells each class has, talents, abilities and duration of thereof was all done from a PvE perspective. The transition from PvE to PvP was not a problem for most classes. Why? Because there was no difference at the most fundamental level. In PvE most classes operate on the following formula: [CLASS] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [CLASS]. When it comes to PvP formula remains the same, it's still [CLASS] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [CLASS]. Not all classes were effective in PvP at first - it has been an ongoing balancing process. But not an overly complicated one at that - precisely because for most classes fundamental operating formula is the same in PvE and PvP - so it's a matter of adjustement as many formerly weak classes saw significant improvements over time.
Hunters, however, are an exception. Why? Because our fundamental operating formula gets completely broken going from PvE to PvP. In PvE hunters operate under the following: [HUNTER] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [PET], while in PvP it's [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER]. Our class, like every other, has been designed from a PvE standpoint. But, unlike every other class, we go through a complete breakdown of our fundamental operating formula when it comes to PvP. Even though we engage in PvP, the very concept of Hunter: talents, spells, abilities, durations, etc., etc. remain PvE oriented. That is the root of our greatest weakness, the very essence of the problem with Hunters - something that has never been addressed by Blizzard or players themselves.
It is not that Hunters suck at PvP or can't l2play. The problem is that all our spells, talents and abilities have been designed with a pet in mind, using the [HUNTER] attacks [TARGET]; [TARGET] attacks [PET] formula. We are meant to do our damage standing still - because the underlying assumption is that we have a pet to keep our target at range. The few defensive, snare and escape abilities have not been designed or evaluated for PvP. Instead they were intended to allow our pet to regain aggro or else to allow us to take the last few points of target's life, after we have finally pulled aggro from our pet after a long fight and the the target is almost dead anyway. Our abilities have never truly been vetted from a PvP standpoint - by and large they remain PvE focused after all this time.
This is not meant to imply that hunters are not effective in in any form of PvP at all. But our effectiveness has always depended on a single factor - when PvP conditions are such that they emulate PvE - Hunters are effective. If they are not, and Hunters are forced to PvP using PvP formula like every other class - we become ineffective. In other words, if we have "virtual pets" in PvP who can "tank" allowing us to play essentially as if in PvE or if lack of pet is somehow masked - we do well. In Arenas, all such all pretentions are gone. It's highly organized and competative form of PvP, which forces Hunters to play using PvP formula exposing the fundamental flaw in Hunter design.
Suggestion
It is my suggestion that Blizzard take a fresh look at hunters in PvP and do so using the PvP operating formula: [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER]. Nothing else will adequatly address the fundamental flaw with Hunter design when it comes to PvP. We need to break free of the original PvE-oriented legacy design when it comes to PvP. There had been adjustements to hunter class; sometimes buffs and sometimes nerfs - but unlike other classes who retain the same fundamental operating formula going from PvE to PvP - our problem is not that of an adjustement, not a matter of degree or strength. No amount of adjustements can make up for the fundamental design difference between Hunters' PvE and PvP operating formulas. We need a brand new, completely unfettered look at the fundamental design of our class when it comes to PvP, our abilities, talents, our whole concept of the class needs to be vetted using [HUNTER] attacks [PLAYER]; [PLAYER] attacks [HUNTER] PvP formula to truly address Hunter problems in Arena.
You might notice I'm not offering specific suggestions or solutions at this point - this is not because I don't have any ideas. Rather it's the opposite: I shall offer specific solutions further below. But I'm not sure if they are the correct ones, or the most effective. At this point, I just wanted to get my main point across. I'm fully confident in Blizzard ability to address Hunter community concerns, and if they can come up with better solutions then mine - all the better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dammit, is a cow that shots a gun, commands the beasts and have a 1st grade engineer master!
