Resetting your bio-rhythms

[fastesthamster]

Careful when you look at academic works. They answer very specific questions. You need to look for a literature review on melotonin.

Though its simple like most negative feedback systems the brain will realise there is too much of the hormone and shut it down. Same like with anabolic steroids the system is the same for all hormones in the body.

Hmmm, you're saying all hormones work this way when endogenous melatonin production has been shown not to be affected in several studies, including long term studies. I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that people's melatonin levels are not "normal" in any event, as electric light disrupts melatonin production. Low dose (<1mg) can raise melatonin levels to those that would normally occur nocturnally. So your negative feedback loop won't kick in.

 

[RiaX]

Hmmm, you're saying all hormones work this way when endogenous melatonin production has been shown not to be affected in several studies, including long term studies.

Your references arent long term studies. They ask for a need of long term studies. Also they are highly controlled.

I think the main point I'm trying to get across is that people's melatonin levels are not "normal" in any event, as electric light disrupts melatonin production

I disagree, mine is normal. How many of you using melotonin have actually done an objective lab test to say your melotonin is low ? none you all assuming. Those with pseudo sleeping disorders are probably normal too. Insomnia isnt a "I cant sleep" or "i only only sleep 4 hours a day" or "It takes me 3 hours to fall asleep" ... nooo insomnia is "im awake for 40 hours help"

As i said people have troubles sleeping because of the life style. I have difficulty falling asleep because I have a glass of coke with my supper and i eat at 8pm. Naturally the caffiene in the coke and the 18g of sugar in it is going to keep me up.

So your negative feedback loop won't kick in

Your brain doesnt know what the "normal" level of a hormone. It only knows its own level of the hormone is produces which is dictated by the master gland and also your genetics. It doesnt care if the average production is higher than what it produces in your body. What it produces is what is considers the norm. Taking hormones low dose high dose doesnt matter - when its long term you will disrupt the hormone production.

 

[ant_man]

Using melotonin chronically like zolpidem or zopiclone will cause the same problem though, I suspect melotonin will be harder to remove as its an endogenous hormone. The 13 day trial is pertinant for its recommended use but how many people are actually using it as recommended ? very few they use it as a sleeping pill which is why it was rescheduled the general public forced the MCC's hand. Its not a cure for insomnia like most they are aids till you sort your life style out (of course proper psychiatric patients are exempt from this). Melotonin is also not meant for chronic use

We have been giving our Son Melatonin for the past 2 Years
He is on Concerta so falling alseep has always been a problem.
To date we have had no side affects, on the weekend he falls asleep as per normal, no Melatonin is needed

I also use it, I have tried Dormicum, which does not work for me. Only thing that does is Melatonin.

One of the biggest reason why they have re-scheduled Melatonin is because they have found that parents of very young babies are using it to assist with sleeping.
This most definately can cause problems down the line.

 

[fastesthamster]

Your references arent long term studies. They ask for a need of long term studies. Also they are highly controlled.

There were long term studies, including the one spanning several years which found "side effects or the development of tolerance have not been observed."

I disagree, mine is normal. How many of you using melotonin have actually done an objective lab test to say your melotonin is low ? none you all assuming. Those with pseudo sleeping disorders are probably normal too. Insomnia isnt a "I cant sleep" or "i only only sleep 4 hours a day" or "It takes me 3 hours to fall asleep" ... nooo insomnia is "im awake for 40 hours help"

Okay, I'll turn it around. Have you done an objective lab test to see if yours is normal?

 

[RiaX]

We have been giving our Son Melatonin for the past 2 Years
He is on Concerta so falling alseep has always been a problem.

Thats a justified use. I dislike the use of methylphenidate, its a big problem later in life. Though a real ADHD child is something else so its use is justified as well.

Have you considered using ritalin in divided doses instead of concerta ? you would have more control over the insomnia side-effect using a non extended release prep

I have tried Dormicum, which does not work for me

lol strange, this is used to knock people out stone cold before general anesthetics D: ... knocked me out COLD maybe the dose was to low

parents of very young babies are using it to assist with sleeping.

yup.

everal years which found "side effects or the development of tolerance have not been observed."

That doesnt mean there isnt any.

Okay, I'll turn it around. Have you done an objective lab test to see if yours is normal?

Nope but I dont have trouble sleeping so my melotonin is within the functional normal range.

 

[fastesthamster]

several years which found "side effects or the development of tolerance have not been observed."

That doesnt mean there isnt any.

In probability theory absence of evidence is always evidence of absence.

If E is a binary event and P(H|E) > P(H), "seeing E increases the probability of H"; then P(H|~E) < P(H), "failure to observe E decreases the probability of H".

In this case, E would be the lowering of endogenous melatonin production, and H is the hypothesis that taking melatonin alters the body's production. Not seeing a decrease in melatonin production decreases the probability that taking melatonin will affect your body's melatonin production.

Good enough for me.

Nope but I dont have trouble sleeping so my melotonin is within the functional normal range.

Perhaps your sleep could be even better...

(especially since you posted your response at 11:53 PM )

 

[RiaX]

In probability theory absence of evidence is always evidence of absence.

....

Perhaps your sleep could be even better...

(especially since you posted your response at 11:53 PM )

Nope My body functions of X amount of hours. It doesnt need more or less

 

[ant_man]

Thats a justified use. I dislike the use of methylphenidate, its a big problem later in life. Though a real ADHD child is something else so its use is justified as well.

Have you considered using ritalin in divided doses instead of concerta ? you would have more control over the insomnia side-effect using a non extended release prep

The Concerta lasts for 12 hours, we need this as he is very active, very active.
Ritalin wasnt an option for us, as the school would then have to admin this and we rather do it

 

[fastesthamster]

In probability theory absence of evidence is always evidence of absence.

....

Is this you saying, what exactly? Do you not understand Bayesian probability? Do you think it's a stupid statement because you're familiar with the saying "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence"?

Nope My body functions of X amount of hours. It doesnt need more or less

And a one-eyed man can function without depth perception, it doesn't mean his vision can't be enhanced.

 

[RiaX]

The Concerta lasts for 12 hours, we need this as he is very active, very active.
Ritalin wasnt an option for us, as the school would then have to admin this and we rather do it

Yeah I know but I dislike it because you do realise he is going to be on it the rest of his academic life now. The doctors will say "no he wont" but they are. As soon as they try to stop they fail concentration is completely shot without it. Just be careful some doctors keep the kids on it because it guarantees a consultation for a script. So while school results arent that important decrease his use (and dependence) on it. You dont want his concentration being totally dependent on the drug when he is in grade 11 and 12 and in university (and certainly dont try and stop it if it goes that long).

Thats the problem with an extended release its constantly supplying the body with the drug constantly activating its receptors and stimulating the body.

Is this you saying, what exactly? Do you not understand Bayesian probability? Do you think it's a stupid statement because you're familiar with the saying "absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence"?

Its me not getting into this arguement over quality of academia and actual field use. Evidence is important yes but when you deal with real people evidence can mean nothing even a lack of evidence. People take drugs and get a reaction if it goes according to plan. People sometimes get a reaction from nothing (placebo). Also medical journals arent meant for the lay person to read and appreciate a respected journal entry one has to be trained medically because that base knowledge of the human body is required. Just like how I cant just go read physics journals and expect to understand everything, i can grasp the concenpt sure but I cannot understand it fully because i'm incapable of doing the mathematics behind it

Its the same as trying to learn to swim on the internet, not gonna happen unless you go to a pool.

And a one-eyed man can function without depth perception, it doesn't mean his vision can't be enhanced.

technically it cant. If you restore sight to a blind man in the adulthood, for example, they are incapable of using their sight even though they can see. Why? because when you are a baby your brain is constantly learning even though you arent aware of it or even have memories. Without this the brain doesnt develop in understanding the information recieved by the eyes and therefore it cant work, depth perception and everything goes off. These people with retinal diseases (where the eye sight is restored via gene therapy injecting a retrovirus into the retina to regenerate it) they still use a walking cane and are unable to drive ect so their sight isnt the same as ours, even though they can see

Likewise your one eyed man wouldnt be able to function with 2 eyes (or however you plan to enchance his vision) because his brain isnt cut out to handle the information from two eyes nor can it understand depth. See its not as clear cut as you think

 

[fastesthamster]

Its me not getting into this arguement over quality of academia and actual field use.

That's fine then. We'll leave it at that.

Likewise your one eyed man wouldnt be able to function with 2 eyes (or however you plan to enchance his vision) because his brain isnt cut out to handle the information from two eyes nor can it understand depth. See its not as clear cut as you think

It was an analogy. You can assume, for the sake of the analogy, that we are able to create the requisite neural pathways to handle the information. Or, you could change the analogy to "short-sighted man". He can function without glasses, and if he never gets his eyes tested he thinks he's normal, but with glasses he can suddenly see distant things in focus.

 

[RiaX]

It was an analogy

i know im just irritating you now