Respecting private life.

[Zellephant]

I would never take on a job or project that isn’t 100% outcomes based. I just know how my work ethic, and my personality work. Im also no longer willing to do any work for clients who aren’t respectful of my time and my boundaries, but I am fortunate not to have to anymore.

I would literally die in a 9-5. I do some of my best work between 20:30 and midnight. But I also go cycling or surfing between 08:00 and 10:00 in the mornings, of the weather is good. That time is mine. If my clients cant respect that, that is their problem. Obviously, there are exceptions for critical things, and I make those at my discretion. But the point is, to do this, you also need to respect everyone else’s time, and make sure your deliverables are on time, or early, to give others the opportunity to make their contributions in a time that suits them too, and it only works, if everyone on the project are diligent and professional.

 

[Zellephant]

EU directives and what actually happens are still two different things.

Most countries manage such things internally under their own national laws.

Yes, this is true, but few cultures on earth are as respectful of work life balance as the Europeans are, in general. I love working on projects with Europeans. The brits and the Americans are dreadful to work with.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

I would never take on a job or project that isn’t 100% outcomes based. I just know how my work ethic, and my personality work. Im also no longer willing to do any work for clients who aren’t respectful of my time and my boundaries, but I am fortunate not to have to anymore.

I would literally die in a 9-5. I do some of my best work between 20:30 and midnight. But I also go cycling or surfing between 08:00 and 10:00 in the mornings, of the weather is good. That time is mine. If my clients cant respect that, that is their problem. Obviously, there are exceptions for critical things, and I make those at my discretion. But the point is, to do this, you also need to respect everyone else’s time, and make sure your deliverables are on time, or early, to give others the opportunity to make their contributions in a time that suits them too, and it only works, if everyone on the project are diligent and professional.

/hug

/fix tie

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

You see there are two sides to this and it all boils down to flexibility.

If you are going to be that rigid about out of hours, then you shouldn’t have a moan when the employer expect you to be at the office exactly at 8:00 and then do your full 9 hours and also take exactly and only the allotted lunch time.

No shortcuts, no leaving five minutes earlier, no “quickly shooting out to the doctor” you should then be booking leave by the hour or taking a half day etc.

On the flipside if you company is offering you loads of flexibility, rocking up when you want and leaving when you want and not constantly clock watching your arrival or god forbid expecting time sheets from you, with lunch time being a loose suggestion then is it really such a drama to do a bit of after hours work once in a blue moon? Especially when the flexibility means you just start a bit later the next day and your schedule shifts and you aren’t really doing any “extra” work.

I operate in exactly that latter system and it works just fine for me, and on average it all levels out.

Entirely different story if it’s exploitative in nature and week after week you are doing 10 extra hours for free and they are all in your personal time.

And the “for free” part of it the other side of that coin. Being in IT a bit of standby is always on the cards but this isn’t extra work and isn’t adhoc in nature but something agreed on up front and you should be paid for being on standby as well as any serious work you have to do while on standby.

Time-based KPIs are archaic and unproductive for both parties.

Delivery-based KPIs largely solves the problem by defaulting to the second option. Most responsible people won't mind occasionally working outside office hours if you are given a fair amount of flexibility in return.

I've burnt the midnight oil a number of times without pay and it's never bothered me, because I have the flexibility to go out to the shops, do school runs etc. and even take a nap if I was feeling fatigued, because I'd be more productive if I wake up feeling refreshed. The only thing I won't accept is taking phone calls only to find out something is urgent, because someone else didn't plan or do their part in time. That schit can wait until tomorrow...

 

[Mike Hoxbig]

Tried installing outlook but the policy wants me to allow admin access. How about no.

With us any MS app including Teams has this policy. Not a fck am I locking down my personal device with schitty company rules like rotating passwords every month...

 

[neoprema]

In my years i've found the distinction simple: Some people will do the work after hours because they love their job, and they have a level of maturity to understand they're needed by the company.

Other people will just turn off a device, go offline and be completely unreliable and un-contactable claiming that the 2h of extra work in the week is encroaching on their personal time because they don't own a company and their immaturity does not allow them to realize how much work goes into running a business.

Thankfully, we've been able to weed out the latter driftwood and have good reliable people for now, who i'm happy to give off-time to when they need it and ask for it, because I know if its 5pm and I need them for something, which ultimately will pay their salary, they'll be there.

 

[Herr der Verboten]

Time-based KPIs are archaic and unproductive for both parties.

Delivery-based KPIs largely solves the problem by defaulting to the second option. Most responsible people won't mind occasionally working outside office hours if you are given a fair amount of flexibility in return.

I've burnt the midnight oil a number of times without pay and it's never bothered me, because I have the flexibility to go out to the shops, do school runs etc. and even take a nap if I was feeling fatigued, because I'd be more productive if I wake up feeling refreshed. The only thing I won't accept is taking phone calls only to find out something is urgent, because someone else didn't plan or do their part in time. That schit can wait until tomorrow...

Time-based KPIs at aurecon when it still was aurecon literally made some units create busy work to fill the required amount of time.

Obviously delivery based systems are better...

 

[Herr der Verboten]

In my years i've found the distinction simple: Some people will do the work after hours because they love their job, and they have a level of maturity to understand they're needed by the company.

Other people will just turn off a device, go offline and be completely unreliable and un-contactable claiming that the 2h of extra work in the week is encroaching on their personal time because they don't own a company and their immaturity does not allow them to realize how much work goes into running a business.

Thankfully, we've been able to weed out the latter driftwood and have good reliable people for now, who i'm happy to give off-time to when they need it and ask for it, because I know if its 5pm and I need them for something, which ultimately will pay their salary, they'll be there.

So you want the progress updates from the morning standups at 7pm?

I just ignore these because you'll get them the next morning with next standup.

Otherwise you create and perpetuate being there 24.7 for each whim, concern and or worry that may or may not occur within in the brain.

 

[neoprema]

So you want the progress updates from the morning standups at 7pm?

I just ignore these because you'll get them the next morning with next standup.

Otherwise you create and perpetuate being there 24.7 for each whim, concern and or worry that may or may not occur within in the brain.

Nope no stand-up. I usually get the team to meet at a Starbucks, or M&B or somewhere for a quick debrief before the office. If we're too busy, i'm happy with slack messages. I don't have any intention to watch people constantly, i want deliverables. That said, sometimes our work requires all-hands-on-deck and that's what i'm referring to above.
I've been micromanaged before and i hate it like the plague.

But i also do things a bit differently. Like one staff member was just going through a bad time, he wasn't doing well at work, really becoming a problem. Talking to him he was closed, and abrupt and i mean I had ample reason to go for an HR issue/disciplinary - But I realized there was something more so i said to him what you doing this weekend, he said nothing - i said good, pack your bags we're going to Cape Town. By Saturday afternoon over some wine he had told me everything that was wrong, in a much calmer setting and turns out he was going through a really bad bad time in his family life and didn't know what to do. Once I understood it, and once he understood what I want - we worked far better together and he's a great employee. I prefer that kind of staff management. In the end, we're like a family - just in a different way.

 

[Rumple4skin]

A big part of it is how you manage it. If you create the impression you are available 24x7, people might take advantage or assume you're OK with it.
I worked with a guy who lived in another timezone 7 hours behind us. He worked in support. I would email him in my work day with requests. One day he answered me at an odd hour I wasn't expecting an answer (my morning), so I replied and asked a question... that went on two or three times before he asked me to please email him during normal working hours as his blackberry was keeping him from sleep.

Sometimes it's your own fault lol.

He didn’t know how to turn on silent mode on his BB? My phone is always on silent when I need to sleep. Not that it’s even possible for me to take any work home, but just to quiet down any notifications.

 

[now05ster]

Nope no stand-up. I usually get the team to meet at a Starbucks, or M&B or somewhere for a quick debrief before the office. If we're too busy, i'm happy with slack messages. I don't have any intention to watch people constantly, i want deliverables. That said, sometimes our work requires all-hands-on-deck and that's what i'm referring to above.
I've been micromanaged before and i hate it like the plague.

But i also do things a bit differently. Like one staff member was just going through a bad time, he wasn't doing well at work, really becoming a problem. Talking to him he was closed, and abrupt and i mean I had ample reason to go for an HR issue/disciplinary - But I realized there was something more so i said to him what you doing this weekend, he said nothing - i said good, pack your bags we're going to Cape Town. By Saturday afternoon over some wine he had told me everything that was wrong, in a much calmer setting and turns out he was going through a really bad bad time in his family life and didn't know what to do. Once I understood it, and once he understood what I want - we worked far better together and he's a great employee. I prefer that kind of staff management. In the end, we're like a family - just in a different way.

You seem to be a better boss than the ones I had before I joined my current company.

My previous boss's maxim was "you have to get the maximum for the minimum". That translated to getting the maximum out of your employees with minimum pay. It went beyond pay too, of course.

As a purported Christian, he gave a bad name to Christians.

Lots of other shenanigans too.

 

[RedViking]

My situation is difficult. I work 24 hours and as the years went by the divider between work and non work time has faded. I work for New Zealand, but have employees in various time zones. It is now just a matter of deciding when I need to spend time with family , when I can find a gap to sleep , and then I put my phone in Focus mode during that time.

But I encourage the employees to put their business apps in focus mode when they are outside their working hours as I will send messages or emails whenever I am awake (or these are sent by the software I use) , and because there are too many in different time slots , including myself , I can't keep track of everything.

 

[Cius]

Fortunately work for a fairly mature organization that mostly respects private time for project based roles. For huge project go lives there will be some overtime but it tends to be under 10 % of the year. When I was on operational support of production systems I would get a lot more late night calls but fortunately got out of that role after 2-3 years. Still work with some guys who get woken up all hours of the night for prod support depending who on the team is on duty that week. Not sure I could do that kind of work anymore. Getting too old to be up half the night and then still be expected to be in the office the next day. They don't even get overtime for that as we are all fairly high earners so its not required by law.

I tend to not mind those calls as they are infrequent, and when they do come its something critical, and every one of those looks very good in my portfolio of evidence come performance appraisal time.

 

[HAL 9000]

lol, yeah f-that, even if it is a remote / online meet I might just not attend out of principle

I sometimes do the same when people just blindly book over slots in my calendar that are already booked out, ffs there's a calendar for a reason and I keep mine updated at all times

you don't bother to check if I'm available, expect to learn the error of your ways unless it's a really important meeting

I do freelance IT training on MS Office - I send out my updated availability calendar to my service providers around every 10 days or so, as & when I get additional bookings confirmed.

I sent out this calendar for my April availability to all my training service providers at 13h19 on 31 March 2026...

The orange items are 2 x confirmed bookings for one company - the other items in blue are for another company - which includes 2 x 3-day block bookings over the last 2 weeks in April...



So I go to the company in Midrand that booked the on-site training from the one service provider on Wednesday (08 April) and provide the training facilitation for them - I had gone to the office on Tues (7 April) to collect all the required manuals & documentation for both sessions (08 & 15 April).

Yesterday afternoon at 14h27, I get an email from the service provider requesting a change of date for the second session at their client in Midrand from Wed 15 April to 16 April (which is ALREADY CLEARLY ALLOCATED on my calendar to the other client).

I then have to politely inform them that this sudden date change is not possible, and suggest that they inform their client as to what dates in April are still open & available on my calendar - as detailed above - either on a Monday or Friday during the next 2 weeks.

Now I have to wait for their client to respond with their selection of which of these available dates are most suitable for the second session.

The joys of working freelance in IT...

 

[SauRoNZA]

Time-based KPIs are archaic and unproductive for both parties.

Delivery-based KPIs largely solves the problem by defaulting to the second option. Most responsible people won't mind occasionally working outside office hours if you are given a fair amount of flexibility in return.

I've burnt the midnight oil a number of times without pay and it's never bothered me, because I have the flexibility to go out to the shops, do school runs etc. and even take a nap if I was feeling fatigued, because I'd be more productive if I wake up feeling refreshed. The only thing I won't accept is taking phone calls only to find out something is urgent, because someone else didn't plan or do their part in time. That schit can wait until tomorrow...

100% part and parcel of the division between my example of one and two.

Almost certainly will fall in line with the former being a bums in seats company and the latter being all WFH.

And exactly as your example because “working hours” don’t really exist for me the concept of “after hours l doesn’t really exist either because it all blends right in and really isn’t a problem.

On the point of naps, I see absolutely no difference between taking a nap for half an hour and the next person going to yoga, gym or doing meditation.

 

[neoprema]

You seem to be a better boss than the ones I had before I joined my current company.

My previous boss's maxim was "you have to get the maximum for the minimum". That translated to getting the maximum out of your employees with minimum pay. It went beyond pay too, of course.

As a purported Christian, he gave a bad name to Christians.

Lots of other shenanigans too.

Yeah i've had my fair share of interesting managers in my working years. I started my first job in the early 2000s straight into a massive international company (50k+ employees). My second one was similar - so i was firmly in the corporate mindset. I still think it has its place, i mean its not an easy task to manage that many employees as a company. But I found the biggest problem was too many Managers, and they had this "I am the One" attitude which they seem to just use to abuse everyone around them while accomplishing little.

No one is perfect i mean i've had people tell me they not happy with the way I manage, because they wanted a lot more structure and rigidity and i'm not like that. But, i guess that's why people find the jobs and companies they work with you know.

 

[Smiggles]

Removed myself from the office Whatsapp group. They still wish me happy birthday on there lol.

 

[saor]

On the flipside if you company is offering you loads of flexibility, rocking up when you want and leaving when you want and not constantly clock watching your arrival or god forbid expecting time sheets from you, with lunch time being a loose suggestion then is it really such a drama to do a bit of after hours work once in a blue moon? Especially when the flexibility means you just start a bit later the next day and your schedule shifts and you aren’t really doing any “extra” work.

This. Basically so long as the work is done nobody really gives a **** about how you manage your time. Which means if there's a job that's urgent I don't mind staying late or coming in over the weekend. That said my phone is deaf to clients outside of working hours. Message me over the weekend you can wait till Monday for me to read your message.

 

[Jet-Fighter7700]

one of the reasons I moved to CPT is this idea of private time is private time,
JHB has a very different culture than CPT, as somebody who worked for a very long time up in JHB that is something I really enjoyed about work culture in different cities.

and I remember it being joked about in JHB how lazy cape town people are, slaapstad jokes and all that, only when I came out here did I finally understand it.

personally, I believe in flexibility, IT is hard enough anyway, constant demands, unlike something simpler like bricklaying.

 

[Mirai]

Yes, this is true, but few cultures on earth are as respectful of work life balance as the Europeans are, in general. I love working on projects with Europeans. The brits and the Americans are dreadful to work with.

Americans are decent in America. Overseas, they can be a-holes. Brits are two faced, often.