Retirement Annuities

That R2.7 million in 32 years time will be of little value due to inflation. Just saying. Especially the R793,730 bonus. Is the echo bonus amount also subject to the market returns?

So I used an Old Mutual retirement calculator and the Sanlam figures:

32 year with 7.6% return (10% market return - 2.4% fees) - R2,781,489.25 - doesn't that seem strange, almost the same figure are their termination value (fund value + bonus)? Maybe it's as I suspected, you are paying the Echo Bonus, its not coming from their pocket.

32 year with 9% return (10% market return - 1% fees) - R3,364,709.14 - near R600 000 (20%) more if using a cheaper product from 10X. With a Sygnia fund it might even be better.
 
Sadly those figures will never materialise, ever.
Had the same promises from OM in '89 but got 1/10 th return..
 
WOW Sanlam are still up to their old tricks, even with all the competition moving into this space over the years.
Just to echo Supersunbirds calcs. The returns shown with the bonus comes to 7.7% per year so costs of 2.3% py, which are already crazy, but the returns without the bonus come to 5% py (costs 5% py !!!!!). In order to earn the bonus you have to jump through a bunch of hoops eg.
- You cannot skip payments without being penalised
- You have to contribute for 32 years, if you decide to retire in 30 years you lose some of the bonus.
- You cannot change your mind later and move to another provider - who knows what great products may be available in the future.
- you have to accept a 10% increase per year, what happens if inflation is very low for the next 3 decades. It happened in Japan these last 20 years, and many times in history. Well if inflation is zero your pay increases will not be close to 10% but you will have to fork out R10000 pm in 2014 Rands by the end of the contract. This will likely force you to reduce the premium and lose out on the bonus. Don't discount low inflation or deflation, it happens.

All this in a world where Sygnia offers a completely flexible product (no penalties, no restrictions) at .4% pa all costs included. Why are you still dithering, just pay the penalty on your R5000 invested with Sanlam and get the hell out of there.
 
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I want to explain how people should look at calculations like the one Maverick got from Sanlam, because it is designed to trick people who suffer from money illusion. From Wikikpedia: "In economics, money illusion, or price illusion, refers to the tendency of people to think of currency in nominal, rather than real, terms."

The illustration is shown in nominal terms, but it makes some weird assumptions which would be more appropriate for an illustration in real terms, and therefore most people see the end values in 2014 Rands, when they actually represent 2046 Rands.

To get the correct perspective one should assume an inflation rate to translate these numbers into real terms. 6% would be a reasonable assumption as this is the future inflation rate the market expects right now.

The 10% annual premium increase therefore represents a 4% real increase. This premium will represent a larger proportion of your income every year, unless you get a pay increase of more than 4% above inflation every year. This is not realistic, our economy struggles to grow at more than 3% above inflation, so the average pay increase cannot be more than economic growth can sustain. 3% is the max, many people will struggle to sustain pay increases much above inflation, so a premium growing at 4% above inflation will become a substantial burden over time.
The 10% return assumed actually represents a 4% real return after 6% inflation. (It is actually 3.8% because the nominal return is the product of inflation and real return.) This is a fairly reasonable assumption for expected real returns from a balanced portfolio.

So the 6% inflation earned means nothing to an investor. No one would invest if you only kept pace with inflation – rather spend it, less risky. The 4% real return is what you actually get so if Sanlam appropriates 2.3% of it for themselves, that represents 58% of the return which the market feels you deserve to get for the risk you take, leaving you with a paltry 42% of the real return. If they take 5% it means they are taking more than the real return you can realistically earn – you are better off spending your hard earned money now because it will be worth less to you when you spend it in retirement.

So adjusting Sanlam’s numbers for inflation we get:
R1,207,000 premiums minus inflation = R376,000
If it grows at 10% nominal (4% real): R3,851,000 = R660,000 after inflation (in 2014 Rand terms)
If it grows at 7.7% nominal (1.7% real after costs of 2.3%) :R2,798,000 = R471,000 after infl.
If it grows at 5% nominal (-1% real after costs of 5%) :R2,005,000 = R332,000 after infl.
 
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I'm off to buy some more shares in Sanlam. If they can find enough idiots to sell this echo product to it bodes well for the share price.
 
Do yourself a favour and open an account with Allan gray. Dont go through a broker and invest in some balanced funds (Allan gray, foord or coronation). This will save you on all the bloated fees the advisors will charge for doing the same thing.

Many Allan Grey funds are closed now for new investors..
 
Many Allan Grey funds are closed now for new investors..

Yes, buts that due to them reaching limits imposed on foreign investments, balanced funds should be fine because they are Regulation 28 compliant and thus do not cause the providers funds to reach those limits...
 
So then if I have R1000 would you guys say I invest half in Allan Gray or Coronation and the other half in Sygnia? Or the whole lot in one provider?
 
So then if I have R1000 would you guys say I invest half in Allan Gray or Coronation and the other half in Sygnia? Or the whole lot in one provider?

If I only had a R1000pm, then Sygnia Skeleton Balanced 70 Fund (I see they changed then name now, there also Sygnia Skeleton Balanced 40 Fund that is lower risk), since that's the lowest amount they allow for monthly contribution. If I had R2000pm, then I'd have it split, between that and Coronation RA.
 
I have to bring this one back to life. Hopefully someone will pitch in and help.

Old Mutual allows me to track my RA online and well let's just say it paints a scary picture.

Is it normal that at the end of every month, every R1000 I out in results in R750 increase in fund value?
 
I have to bring this one back to life. Hopefully someone will pitch in and help.

Old Mutual allows me to track my RA online and well let's just say it paints a scary picture.

Is it normal that at the end of every month, every R1000 I out in results in R750 increase in fund value?

What funds are these?
 
I have to bring this one back to life. Hopefully someone will pitch in and help.

Old Mutual allows me to track my RA online and well let's just say it paints a scary picture.

Is it normal that at the end of every month, every R1000 I out in results in R750 increase in fund value?

Fees can easily do this, most brokers take fees for the first two years or so, so you have to wait long term for this to even out. Cancel that rubbish and go to Coronation or Alan Gray direct and then R1000 invested is R1000 in fund value per month, they take like 1% on the growth of the thing at the end of the year. I was in the same spot with Sanlam and took a cut to leave them and do it myself.
 
Sorry, I don't mean to deflect, but would appreciate some comments from the resident experts on how to deal with two ancient preservation funds (pension and provident) I have OM. Both are 20+ years old and spread between OMAM Core Balanced equity, Coronation Managed (taxed) and Investec Balanced Fund (both multiasset income). I am not retired but would like to position these to start working better for me when I do. No broker involved as both are from decades ago. I'd like to turn both preservation funds into some sort of RA that gives optimal return.
 
Sorry, I don't mean to deflect, but would appreciate some comments from the resident experts on how to deal with two ancient preservation funds (pension and provident) I have OM. Both are 20+ years old and spread between OMAM Core Balanced equity, Coronation Managed (taxed) and Investec Balanced Fund (both multiasset income). I am not retired but would like to position these to start working better for me when I do. No broker involved as both are from decades ago. I'd like to turn both preservation funds into some sort of RA that gives optimal return.

Can't turn the preservation funds into RAs, except if you take the money out (one withdrawal in lifetime of preservation fund allowed) and that would be taxed, making it pointless, you'll never make it back.

And anyway, you can move the preservation funds between providers, and invest in the exact same things as the RAs from that provider (just no additional contributions, not that that matters), so you'll get exactly the same return...
 
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