RIP Charlie Kirk

[vigras rojara]

They haven't quite knocked all the hope out of you just yet, I suspect.... otherwise I wouldn't see the knee-jerk every time I offer an alternative.

Full acceptance looks more like total defeat... where you wouldn't bother with a cynical reply.

Total apathy. You're not there yet.

I'm just helping the poor chap out. It would help him to realise that one is unlikely to get an actual answer to a question from you, as you'll instead decide to talk about whatever it is you feel like talking about.

Which is absolutely fine, but it can be a bit annoying at first. Early acceptance is key to pleasant Fridays.

 

[Sideshow Bob]

Ah, there it is. Mock Kirk’s death, call Trump a pedo and claim he staged his own assassination attempt.

Big claims, Bob. Evidence for the last two, please. Not memes, not “everyone knows” ... actual evidence.

Shame. I hurt your pedo leader.

 

[lexity]

Mate, countries aren't VMs. You can't spin up 20 different governance models, see which one crashes and restore the population from a snapshot. Real people have to live through the failed experiments.

You are underestimating what real resources people would put at risk i.e. you think most people would bet the house on a 50/50 chance of winning?

No they wouldn't.

Just because a waiter hands you a steak knife doesn't mean you have to cut your steak into a 1000 pieces. If you really want to, then knock-yourself out.

Rights are like that. Just because you have the right to interact only with certain people, doesn't mean you have to before you have some contingency.

Making irrefutable arguments builds contingency.

You ask me for alternatives.... we should be asking each other/swapping notes, since it's not just me that is staring down the technocratic Marxist double-barrel.

 

[lexity]

I'm just helping the poor chap out. It would help him to realise that one is unlikely to get an actual answer to a question from you, as you'll instead decide to talk about whatever it is you feel like talking about.

Which is absolutely fine, but it can be a bit annoying at first. Early acceptance is key to pleasant Fridays.

Again, spoken like a cynic.

 

[lordnokon]

You are underestimating what real resources people would put at risk i.e. you think most people would bet the house on a 50/50 chance of winning?

No they wouldn't.

Just because a waiter hands you a steak knife doesn't mean you have to cut your steak into a 1000 pieces. If you really want to, then knock-yourself out.

Rights are like that. Just because you have the right to interact only with certain people, doesn't mean you have to before you have some contingency.

Making irrefutable arguments builds contingency.

You ask me for alternatives.... we should be asking each other/swapping notes, since it's not just me that is staring down the technocratic Marxist double-barrel.

That's lovely in theory. History is also full of people experimenting with grand ideas while everyone else got stuck paying for it.

You keep describing the freedom to opt out as if governments come with an unsubscribe button. They don't.

 

[lordnokon]

Shame. I hurt your pedo leader.

That's a remarkably long way of saying “I have no evidence.”

 

[lexity]

That's lovely in theory. History is also full of people experimenting with grand ideas while everyone else got stuck paying for it.

You keep describing the freedom to opt out as if governments come with an unsubscribe button. They don't.

Do you think if you ask any party-agent at a voting booth whether they guarantee the right to freedom of association, they will tell you: "No, don't be so naive.... this is a system in which your vote doesn't really count."


Here is this governments' unsuscribe button.....







You have to click 'unsubscribe'(exercise your rights..... otherwise they likely won't be respected).

p.s. first date: signed by Mandela's party representative/s (on behalf of the Republic of South Africa) of which Ramaposa himself was probably a delegate. Second date: ratified.

 

[lordnokon]

Do you think if you ask any party-agent at a voting booth whether they guarantee the right to freedom of association, they will tell you: "No, don't be so naive.... this is a system in which your vote doesn't really count."


Here is this governments' unsuscribe button.....

View attachment 1936691

View attachment 1936692

View attachment 1936693

You have to exercise your rights..... otherwise they likely won't be respected

Mate, that's not an unsubscribe button.

“All peoples have the right to self-determination” does not mean every individual has the right to unsubscribe from their country, its laws, or its government whenever they feel like it.

You've gone from freedom of association to secession, and now to Article 1 of the ICCPR, as if they're all the same legal right. They're not. Freedom of association is actually dealt with separately under Article 22.

And let's not pretend humanity hasn't spent thousands of years experimenting with different forms of government, decentralization, and self-rule. You're not beta-testing some new protocol here. The difficult part has always been making it work when millions of people want different things.

If Article 1 really is the government's “unsubscribe button”, please show me where I click to unsubscribe from South Africa so that I can stop paying SARS. I'll wait.

 

[Brian_G]

But if you don't vote, you have no control at all. At least have a say, help things move along

 

[ForceFate]

I wonder if if he changed his mind about gun deaths ? In heaven, he must be thinking it was all worth it, ne ? New kind of Jesus, if you will.

For the god loved his other son so much, he shot him this time.

I don't want to show the public I laughed lest they accuse me of blasphemy.

 

[lexity]

Mate, that's not an unsubscribe button.

“All peoples have the right to self-determination” does not mean every individual has the right to unsubscribe from their country, its laws, or its government whenever they feel like it.

You've gone from freedom of association to secession, and now to Article 1 of the ICCPR, as if they're all the same legal right. They're not. Freedom of association is actually dealt with separately under Article 22.

And let's not pretend humanity hasn't spent thousands of years experimenting with different forms of government, decentralization, and self-rule. You're not beta-testing some new protocol here. The difficult part has always been making it work when millions of people want different things.

If Article 1 really is the government's “unsubscribe button”, please show me where I click to unsubscribe from South Africa so that I can stop paying SARS. I'll wait.

I think the figure of speech 'clicking unsubscribe' i.e. meaning exercise your rights may just be lost on you.

Start by looking up 'arguing from first principles'.

Secession is an expression of the individual right to freedom of association. Which in turn comes from the legal concept of self-ownership. It's right there in the literature on individual liberty which forms the bedrock of what enabled the emergence of a middle-class.

It never fails to fascinate me how individuals behave when you point out their position of moral superiority and legal rights to go with it.

Mostly because freedom and individual responsibility are 2 sides of the same coin.... and when you have sold out on individual responsibility, it's a seemingly impossible thing to reverse out of.

The kickback, from otherwise sane people, is remarkable.

 

[Sideshow Bob]

That's a remarkably long way of saying “I have no evidence.”

Sure, pastor lordnokon. No altar boys were harmed in your service.

But, I must say it takes gut to say it openly that you love a pedophile. Andrew tate devotee, for sure.

 

[lexity]

But if you don't vote, you have no control at all. At least have a say, help things move along

Are the people you vote for not pre-selected? i.e. a list of eligible candidates has to be decided before anyone votes from that list.

 

[lordnokon]

I think the figure of speech 'clicking unsubscribe' i.e. meaning exercise your rights may just be lost on you.

Start by looking up 'arguing from first principles'.

Secession is an expression of the individual right to freedom of association. Which in turn comes from the legal concept of self-ownership. It's right there in the literature on individual liberty which forms the bedrock of what enabled the emergence of a middle-class.

It never fails to fascinate me how individuals behave when you point out their position of moral superiority and legal rights to go with it.

Mostly because freedom and individual responsibility are 2 sides of the same coin.... and when you have sold out on individual responsibility, it's a seemingly impossible thing to reverse out of.

The kickback, from otherwise sane people, is remarkable.

Ah, so now I'm the problem and apparently sitting on some moral high ground.

I understood your unsubscribe point perfectly well. I just don't agree with it.

And you mention individual responsibility... that's exactly the point. Freedom comes with responsibility, rules and consequences. You can't just take the freedom part and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

As they say in John Wick: “Rules. Without them, we'd live with the animals.”

Actions have consequences. Otherwise what exactly does “individual responsibility” even mean?

 

[lexity]

“All peoples have the right to self-determination” does not mean every individual has the right to unsubscribe from their country, its laws, or its government whenever they feel like it.

NEWSFLASH.....

It means exactly that.

Unless you definite a right as a legal privilege to pick your neighbors pocket to pay for any part of it.

 

[ForceFate]

Sure, pastor lordnokon. No altar boys were harmed in your service.

But, I must say it takes gut to say it openly that you love a pedophile. Andrew tate devotee, for sure.

They keep asking for evidence knowing such evidence is either redacted, withheld or suppressed.

 

[lordnokon]

Sure, pastor lordnokon. No altar boys were harmed in your service.

But, I must say it takes gut to say it openly that you love a pedophile. Andrew tate devotee, for sure.

Bob, we're now at altar boys and Andrew Tate and you still haven't produced a shred of evidence for either claim I actually asked you about.

But please, keep going. This is doing far more for my argument than anything I could write.

 

[Brian_G]

Are the people you vote for not pre-selected? i.e. a list of eligible candidates has to be decided before anyone votes from that list.

Yep, and I often don't like that either, the idea of voting for your candidate not your party is more appealing. But we work with what we've got.

 

[lexity]

Ah, so now I'm the problem and apparently sitting on some moral high ground.

I understood your unsubscribe point perfectly well. I just don't agree with it.

And you mention individual responsibility... that's exactly the point. Freedom comes with responsibility, rules and consequences. You can't just take the freedom part and pretend the rest doesn't exist.

As they say in John Wick: “Rules. Without them, we'd live with the animals.”

Actions have consequences. Otherwise what exactly does “individual responsibility” even mean?

You are making the leap as some others on this forum.

Nowhere have I ever advocated a system of no-rules.

Yet, here, you are attributing that view to me.

Let's keep this civil. Try not to put words in my mouth/ascribe views to me which I never advocated.

 

[lordnokon]

They keep asking for evidence knowing such evidence is either redacted, withheld or suppressed.

Ah, the evidence exists, we just can't see it. That's wonderfully convenient.

You can prove absolutely anything with evidence nobody is allowed to see.