If that's the case, agreed.
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Question of the Day: Main reasons you wouldn't get an EV?
SA Farm Expropriated
- Thread starter DigitalSoldier
- Start date
GavinMannion
Executive Member
At last sanity and not speculation. May your children have wealthy parents
Why thank you....
Don't tell the other though they think I am blind and can't see the truth... they have never been ones to let facts get in the way of a good story
The core difference it seems is that the land in Zimbabwe was just being taken, then handed over to cronies who had no real interest in the land.
The taxpayers would have received money for the land when the previous government sold it.
There is a clear racist element here assuming that if a person is black they are not capable of making responsible use of property. If you think land that has been restored is not generally being used effectively, then why don't you list all land restored and show us exactly how much is being run into the ground.
The taxpayers would have received money for the land when the previous government sold it.
There is a clear racist element here assuming that if a person is black they are not capable of making responsible use of property. If you think land that has been restored is not generally being used effectively, then why don't you list all land restored and show us exactly how much is being run into the ground.
Skeptik
Banned
Errr. So if I donate my house to you, it has less value and becomes disposable does it? And the government has more right to take it ... there's logic in there somewhere ... if only I could see it.
AN IMPORTANT point here. Once the land people have your property in their sights, it becomes tricky to do any business. You can't mortgage it. You cannot sell it. You cannot improve it. You are basically SHTUCK!
Then the waiting starts. They offer you R20m say. This is probably 1/2 what it's worth. Then 2 years later you cannot get hold of them. They've dragged their feet at every stage. How much do you thing the R20m is worth NOW?? Then the farmer demands more because the land he was going to buy with the money has also gone up. Now do you see the dilemmas.
Also they won't pay for the buildings/dams/fencing/barns/processing plants etc so say BYE BYE to your expenditure.
In most modern democracies there is unused land. Should it be up for grabs then.. more dodge logic.
I hope you are making use of your lawn ... we could squeeze some shack dwellers between the cabbages and the apple tree.
stoke
Honorary Master
Yup .. agree'd, my applauding was not clear. Let me clarify.
Where there is appropriation of land, during the process of restitution and rebalancing, the re-appropriation of unused land instead of productive and farmed land is applauded by me.
.. me is practising to be minister of transport.
Where there is appropriation of land, during the process of restitution and rebalancing, the re-appropriation of unused land instead of productive and farmed land is applauded by me.
.. me is practising to be minister of transport.All governments have laws in place that allow them to take your land if they deem it necessary. The only requirement is that they pay you. And if you refuse to come to an agreement on price they are allowed to just set a price, pay you and forcibly remove you.
let's put this into perspective
I don't work for the government nor am I familiar with its inner workings, but
I would imagine how much pressure the minister is working under in order to:
1. Avoid the land-grab like what's taking place in Zim, 20/30 years down thenline.
2. Curb the mass movement of the youth to cities for better life, only 2b dissappointed and resort to crime etc.
Having said all of that, the efforts above will be futile if the same government does not take steps to educate the communities on farming skills.
The question perhaps is, who's now responsible for making sure that the 'new' farmers are well trained and capable to match and/or exceed the production quantities and qualities of the previous owners.
I wouldn't hand this task to the DoE nor to the president himself. Their track record on education leaves a lot 2b desired. In his speech, Mr Mbeki said '...
Matric pass rates do indicate that much more needs to be done to stabilise
the system...." this is both sad and frightnenig. Other than to promise drastic measures to solve a crisis situation, he'd rather 'stabilise'.
I don't have anything to say about the Minister of Education and her entire department. Maybe she can tell us what she does everyday/week.
Coming back to the Land problem, this is a very very sensitive issue. I believe the sooner the land issue is settled the better!
I don't work for the government nor am I familiar with its inner workings, but
I would imagine how much pressure the minister is working under in order to:
1. Avoid the land-grab like what's taking place in Zim, 20/30 years down thenline.
2. Curb the mass movement of the youth to cities for better life, only 2b dissappointed and resort to crime etc.
Having said all of that, the efforts above will be futile if the same government does not take steps to educate the communities on farming skills.
The question perhaps is, who's now responsible for making sure that the 'new' farmers are well trained and capable to match and/or exceed the production quantities and qualities of the previous owners.
I wouldn't hand this task to the DoE nor to the president himself. Their track record on education leaves a lot 2b desired. In his speech, Mr Mbeki said '...
Matric pass rates do indicate that much more needs to be done to stabilise
the system...." this is both sad and frightnenig. Other than to promise drastic measures to solve a crisis situation, he'd rather 'stabilise'.
I don't have anything to say about the Minister of Education and her entire department. Maybe she can tell us what she does everyday/week.
Coming back to the Land problem, this is a very very sensitive issue. I believe the sooner the land issue is settled the better!
stoke
Honorary Master
A MyEducation forum is perhaps overdue.
I'd love to get hold of the minister of education's agenda.
I'd love to get hold of the minister of education's agenda.
Skeptik
Banned
LOLYup .. agree'd, my applauding was not clear. Let me clarify.
Where there is appropriation of land, during the process of restitution and rebalancing, the re-appropriation of unused land instead of productive and farmed land is applauded by me.
Believe it or not, but there is a lot of land that sits idle. Much of it is government land. Some property, the govnmnt don't even know belongs to them.
Agreed. However they are required to pay market rates for it. They also have to pay for the improvements. Also, this land is usually required for transport schemes like a new motorway or road widening. The process is apolitical as well. Hardly the same thing.
As above
2 Questions: 1, do we as tax payers have right to claim the land considering we are paying for it? 2, If the land is being "handed" over to the communities that "were there" before, why are the San basically extinct and moved so far from the land? Surely if anyone has a claim on land in Southern Africa it is them and only them?
Skeptik : The government does pay market related prices. Independent evaluators are called in to determine the price. This is, however in this case, different to what the seller wanted. Thus it is an expropriation. By definition, the seller is unwilling to sell it at that price (Otherwise it would be just a normal sale), but is getting market related prices (by law)
AFAIK they generally get given full title to the land.
GavinMannion
Executive Member
The communities that where there before are not the San. These are people who where forcibly removed as recently as 30 years ago... These people are still alive and at worst it is their 1st generation children. It's not like we also don't have proof that they where forcibly evicted so I think it is fair to say it was there land.
Yeah the reason people get upset is because they might not want to move. If someone came and said they will give me R1m for my house and I must go I would be pissed. Even if my house was worth R900k. I don't want to move. Market related and emotionally worth are very different.
According to the link I posted no.... It was given to them
Let me tell my story. In Nelspruit on my parents plot they have a land claim against them.
Now there are about 30 plots all around them each plot no bigger than 4 hectares. The plot owners had to put in their own boreholes for water and build their own house on the plot. FYI Nelspruit is not the cheapest place to live in as everything is very expensive. All in all my parents bought this land to retire on and they built their dream house on it. All in all they paid just over 1.5 million for the house and the improvements etc. Most of the plot owners around them had done the same some just a bit more money spent.
What can anyone do on a 4 hectare plot? I mean its not big enough to farm on so why does the state want the plot and do you really think that they(the state) will hand over close on 60mill just to take about 80 hectares for the 30 plots?
You work for 50 years pay your taxes save money and now the state want to take your house and give it to someone that claims their forefathers roamed the area 200 years ago? Yes roamed, apparently it was people who moved around with a few head of cattle and when the grass got too short they moved on to the next piece of land. The same people have layed claims to most of nelspruit and surrounding areas.
This is just so wrong and i realy feel angry by what the goverment is trying to do here.
Btw the area they are in is in mountains so one cannot really farm grain mielies etc.
Now there are about 30 plots all around them each plot no bigger than 4 hectares. The plot owners had to put in their own boreholes for water and build their own house on the plot. FYI Nelspruit is not the cheapest place to live in as everything is very expensive. All in all my parents bought this land to retire on and they built their dream house on it. All in all they paid just over 1.5 million for the house and the improvements etc. Most of the plot owners around them had done the same some just a bit more money spent.
What can anyone do on a 4 hectare plot? I mean its not big enough to farm on so why does the state want the plot and do you really think that they(the state) will hand over close on 60mill just to take about 80 hectares for the 30 plots?
You work for 50 years pay your taxes save money and now the state want to take your house and give it to someone that claims their forefathers roamed the area 200 years ago? Yes roamed, apparently it was people who moved around with a few head of cattle and when the grass got too short they moved on to the next piece of land. The same people have layed claims to most of nelspruit and surrounding areas.
This is just so wrong and i realy feel angry by what the goverment is trying to do here.
Btw the area they are in is in mountains so one cannot really farm grain mielies etc.
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GavinMannion
Executive Member
Have they made any attempt at offering a price to your parents yet?
AFAIK there are thousands of land claims that get thrown out, this sounds like it will be chucked as well but please keep us up to date.
If they lived there 200 years ago then it's call tough and they are just taking chances IMO.
AFAIK there are thousands of land claims that get thrown out, this sounds like it will be chucked as well but please keep us up to date.
If they lived there 200 years ago then it's call tough and they are just taking chances IMO.
Yea will do. No price discussions yet.
Each of the plot owners paid a lawyer R6000 to take this case to court.
My parents was also instructed not to make any improvements to the plot until this case is settled and if they need to do anything on the plot they will need to contact the government official dealing with the area's land claims.
Your land but one cant do nothing on it......
Each of the plot owners paid a lawyer R6000 to take this case to court.
My parents was also instructed not to make any improvements to the plot until this case is settled and if they need to do anything on the plot they will need to contact the government official dealing with the area's land claims.
Your land but one cant do nothing on it......
Gavin: I had a very long and in depth conversation with a lawyer involved with these land issues last night at a dinner party. He says that improvements (i.e. houses, buildings and even mechanical installations such as boreholes) are not equated into the government's offer price. Now how the hell is that fair?