Turiko
Banned
Indeed, how will it work here? My previous workplace tried, and failed miserably.
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Indeed, how will it work here? My previous workplace tried, and failed miserably.
RazedInBlack
RazedInBlack
China will rape th **** out of SA then leave us to pick up the pieces. SA must see to SA!
Turiko
Banned
Indeed they will... they are already abusing the poor south africans that wind up working for them, in places like Bruma. They work all weekend, public holidays, Christmastime, New Year. All they have off is when their bosses celebrate their Chinese holidays and other stuff.
Lord Anubis
Expert Member
Buy US! China is in for a plunge. We need the US now, China maybe viable by 2015, but now our economy is $ based.
This would be fantastic, not to be dependent on foreign economic influence and market stimulation. Would be even greater if we can produce our own SA brands.
If we need external enablement, it should be to enable local produce not introduce local distribution with foreign financial influence.
I would rather have a producing nation that argue their freedom with constructive contribution for all, than what we have currently: a bunch of get-rich-quick tokens and self serving financial supremacy.
I do however not agree with the communist model but find that the one we have now is disgusting to say the least.
Albereth
Honorary Master
The Chinese social strucutres are seriously whacked.
How often to we hear how the PDIs were exploited, that everything that the PAIs have is due to the cheap labour of the PDIs. What cheap labour? It is cheaper to come up with a bright idea, have your product manufactured in Chain, and then shipped back here for sale, than try and do it all here. Cheaper, exactly the quality you want, and without any labour problems. That shows you just how expensive South Africans are.
So why is this? China has a huge population. The sheer size of the population means that they will have more talented people than a smaller population, and that these talented people are actually fairly common (relatively speaking). There is no need to pay any premium for talent. They have had a programme of trying to reduce that by limiting the number of children to one per couple. You have heard of the horror stories of the girl-children being killed at birth because a boy-child will provide for his parents in their old age. This surplus of males means that the individuals have no 'distractions' like finding a mate and raising a family, so they may as well work. How many stories have we had in SA about a factory burning and people being locked inside and dying - look at who owned those factories. People who work in Chinese factories are locked in, they live there. It is almost like a prison camp. Health and Safety? That's a foreign concept - we think lead in paint used on toys is a bad thing (and it is) but think of the people who paint the toys breathing in those fumes day after day.
Invite China in? You are not going to create employment opportunities, they bring their own people over. But they'll be closer to raw materials and Europe - and that'll reduce their costs even more.
It would be better to compete with China but for the most part you need to overcome the lack of cheap talent and actually get people to work as hard as the Chinese. Aligning with the US means a better quality of life but more expensive. Aligning with China has no redeeming features at all except for some possible contribution to the tax coffers - and based on the excellent deal negotiating skills of our mob, I seriously doubt that.
How often to we hear how the PDIs were exploited, that everything that the PAIs have is due to the cheap labour of the PDIs. What cheap labour? It is cheaper to come up with a bright idea, have your product manufactured in Chain, and then shipped back here for sale, than try and do it all here. Cheaper, exactly the quality you want, and without any labour problems. That shows you just how expensive South Africans are.
So why is this? China has a huge population. The sheer size of the population means that they will have more talented people than a smaller population, and that these talented people are actually fairly common (relatively speaking). There is no need to pay any premium for talent. They have had a programme of trying to reduce that by limiting the number of children to one per couple. You have heard of the horror stories of the girl-children being killed at birth because a boy-child will provide for his parents in their old age. This surplus of males means that the individuals have no 'distractions' like finding a mate and raising a family, so they may as well work. How many stories have we had in SA about a factory burning and people being locked inside and dying - look at who owned those factories. People who work in Chinese factories are locked in, they live there. It is almost like a prison camp. Health and Safety? That's a foreign concept - we think lead in paint used on toys is a bad thing (and it is) but think of the people who paint the toys breathing in those fumes day after day.
Invite China in? You are not going to create employment opportunities, they bring their own people over. But they'll be closer to raw materials and Europe - and that'll reduce their costs even more.
It would be better to compete with China but for the most part you need to overcome the lack of cheap talent and actually get people to work as hard as the Chinese. Aligning with the US means a better quality of life but more expensive. Aligning with China has no redeeming features at all except for some possible contribution to the tax coffers - and based on the excellent deal negotiating skills of our mob, I seriously doubt that.
The difference between Chinese and Western investment in Africa is that
the Westerners at least have learnt to tolerate the local work ethic and allow
local workers and semi skilled people to work. The Chinese will bring in their own labour too as they just can get to grips with the way non-Chinese work.
This is a major issue and a big source of complaints for Africans.
The Chinese offer fewer work opportunities for local people than Westerners.
Will it change? Maybe but it will take long as China is a one party, governened
isolated state not used to foreign cultures.
Dude, it's exactly the opposite, were in the world do the US enable local labour. They ensure their contractors are used. The Chinese are famous in Africa for not getting involved in politics or labour initiatives.
We are still Africa, everyone is talking like china is taking us over, and we have the choice to decide what we allow in our country. They need to meet our terms and our economic business model.
Another thing, linking our market with the Chinese will ensure we get a better exchange on our resources as we are already exporting.
The less middleman swindling happening with our stocks the more secure they will be for investors and local confidence.
The less middleman swindling happening with our stocks the more secure they will be for investors and local confidence.
Nanfeishen
Executive Member
What about many places where the locals dont want to work the hours required? How about skills? Lack of education of many?
How about the language barrier? Cultural barrier?
Local labour want representatives, unions, breaks for this and for that, in other words local labour often want the money but arent prepared to work the hours, and will down tools have sit ins etc, all affect production and throw scheduling out the window.
Chinese labour doesnt suffer with this, they understand the foreman/boss/director, have the skills, understand deadlines and work the hours. They all share the same language/culture/diet etc.
At the end of the day it is far better for many of these businesses to bring in their own labour from China.
A friend recently returned from Namibia, did an overland trip with her Husband and friends from Caprivi down along the Cunene river to the mouth.
En route they stopped at a village next to a marble mine.
The mine is run by a Zimbabwean engineer with Chinese labour.
When they asked why, the Engineer said the locals arent prepared to work the mine, and have no skills to either.
That is the biggest issue in many parts of Africa, no skills, lack of education, not prepared to work long hours.
I think you've got the facts wrong or you misunderstood.
The Chinese use their own labour. They have a Chinese national doing manual labour. The Western Co's may import the foreman - if at all, but the dude with the spade is the local and because of local Western laws and local Western customs and cultural diversity in the west, the Westerners TOLERATE Unions and local labour law MORE than the Chinese who you know
do not care much for individual rights (not as much as the Westerners) - hence the horror stories of 'sweat shops'.
An unskilled African worker will get more benefit from working for a Western Co
than not working for a Chinese one (because the Chinese have hundreds of millions of poor peasants they can give employment to and don't have to hassle with local customs or trade unions).
From the unskilled worker POV a Western Co is better, despite the psychological effect of working for the ex-Colonialists. I doubt the poor in Africa really care about that.
I am looking at this from the POV of the local unskilled or semi-skilled labourer. From their POV a Western Co which tolerates their customs and labour practices is better than a Chinese business which has their own manual labourers. Chinese foremen (PRC nationals) are just not capable interacting with
different cultures. They don't understand the work ethic. Its the same with early Japanese investments in USA where the Japanese managers were shocked to learn the US workers wanted time off to see the doctor or
go off because the guy's wife is delivering a baby. That's changed now but
the Red Chinese with little exposure to foreigners have a different mindset.
For the poorest of the poor, the Western way is better. China is about itself.
Socialists are not altruistic, read some Marx or Engels and you'll see.
People who say Chinese businesses will be better for Africans
either do not know the full story, do know and support the local politicians
who will get the kickbacks OR have strange burgeois ideas and have never
really interacted with a worker (they presume to know what's better for the worker from their ivory tower viewpoint).
either do not know the full story, do know and support the local politicians
who will get the kickbacks OR have strange burgeois ideas and have never
really interacted with a worker (they presume to know what's better for the worker from their ivory tower viewpoint).