SA University standards are dropping

[zulgin]

THE standards of South African universities will continue to drop unless there is increased investment in “brain power”.

So said education experts after the respected QS World University Rankings 2010 were released this week.

The only SA university included in the list of the 200 best in the world was the University of Cape Town, which came in at 161. This was down from the 146th position it occupied in 2009, in which it was also the only African university to feature. Wits University, 321st last year, did not rank this year, as only 200 universities were listed.

More than 2500 universities were evaluated according to the number of international students they attracted, employers’ opinions on the quality of the graduates they produced, and academics’ submissions of their best universities. Those polled were not allowed to submit in favour of their own institutions. – The Times, Avusa Group News

Although these rankings should be taken with a pinch of salt, the complete list of the top 500 Universities can be found here ,

Well done to UCT, Wits and tukkies for making the top 500 in the world. It is however sad to see that every year the universities drop a ranking or two, when you compare faculties all 3 of them seems to be in the top 300 at this point in time in one or another. It is really sad to see that only 1 of the traditional Afrikaans Universties made it, without doubt the management of these universities are to busy with transformation then actually raising the standard and quality of their education.

 

[scotty777]

Hmmm, these rankings are more based on the amount of research the universities do, number of papers published from each university, amount of investments put into the universities, number of A class graduates (or respected people) that come from these universities. I've obvious that we won't do amazingly, we just don't have the money to secure spots in the higher positions .

However, I sometimes download lecture notes from MIT because their engineering course, is exactly the same as mine, we do the same physics, same maths, same applied maths etc... so our degree is by no means worth any less than a MIT student , they just have a flip load more money to spend on research, have been equipment, and also attract the best of the best students from the world (so it makes sense that they would have better scientists, engineers, etc, they start with people that are the cream of the crop ).

Um, otherwise, I just suggest the government makes studying a more viable option for kids, like give kids insentives etc.

 

[zulgin]

Hmmm, these rankings are more based on the amount of research the universities do, number of papers published from each university, amount of investments put into the universities, number of A class graduates (or respected people) that come from these universities. I've obvious that we won't do amazingly, we just don't have the money to secure spots in the higher positions .

However, I sometimes download lecture notes from MIT because their engineering course, is exactly the same as mine, we do the same physics, same maths, same applied maths etc... so our degree is by no means worth any less than a MIT student , they just have a flip load more money to spend on research, have been equipment, and also attract the best of the best students from the world (so it makes sense that they would have better scientists, engineers, etc, they start with people that are the cream of the crop ).

Um, otherwise, I just suggest the government makes studying a more viable option for kids, like give kids insentives etc.

the margin between the top 500 are very small, however the amount of quality students that make it through the system is declining year by year in SA, hence our rankings are dropping. We have the money to compete, but we chose to spend it elsewhere. There isn't anything wrong with our curriculum or the quality of lecturers at these universities that made the rankings.

 

[scotty777]

the margin between the top 500 are very small, however the amount of quality students that make it through the system is declining year by year in SA, hence our rankings are dropping. We have the money to compete, but we chose to spend it elsewhere. There isn't anything wrong with our curriculum or the quality of lecturers at these universities that made the rankings.

I guess we also having people moving to other countries prior to enrolling into University here... Hence Australian universities are doing well (all our brains are moving there ).

Someone has to wake up our government and get this relatively small issue sorted out now before it becomes a serious problem and the country can't produce proficient engineers, scientists, and doctors (then we will be truly stuffed ).

as a side note, zulgin, I seem to be having quite a few discussions with you of late,

 

[Sl8er]

Education in general in this country -although discussed to death - is suffering. The only thing this government is good at, is flapping its gums. When it comes time to actually DO something, so much time has passed that everyone is discussing "something else" already. That said, it seems more important to increase self wealth than to actually look out for "the people" and invest heavily in the education system. Into something that actually works. But this seems to be the African trend. (Where "African" refers to the continent.)

(Example : just s few years ago Zimbabwe's education system was better than ours...BETTER than OURS, the economic powerhouse of Africa...playing second fiddle to a fooked up little country. How do you explain that? I just don't get it. :erm

I hate to say it but the way things are going this is just going to turn into another African country. (The reason why it hasn't YET, is because unlike other African countries that were left with little to no infrastructure, this had everything in place. So it may take a little longer, but it is imminent...unless things change DRASTICALLY. Which I really hope will be the case!)
Yes, our economy is "doing well" -considering the current goings-on in the world...but nothing lasts forever.

The ONLY way this country can come out of this "on top" is with proper education. We just need the proper people in place to enforce it. We just need the proper people in place...PERIOD.
(I MAY have gone off topic a little, but this all ties in with...EDUCATION.)

 

[zulgin]

My suggestion is to disband the department of education and let the Universities manage the educational syllabus, this works very well in England with the Cambridge A levels, highly regarded as one of the best matric in the world (zimbabwe follows this curriculum), politicians have never been good at education.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

the margin between the top 500 are very small, however the amount of quality students that make it through the system is declining year by year in SA, hence our rankings are dropping. We have the money to compete, but we chose to spend it elsewhere. There isn't anything wrong with our curriculum or the quality of lecturers at these universities that made the rankings.

True statement.

Even though UNISA has 200K students (and growing at an astronomical rate), most students will only not qualify for an honours course as they will be contempt with just passing and thats it. Its very easy to get a degree, but it requires a lot of discipline and sacrifice to do so with good marks.

 

[UnUnOctium]

Hmmm, these rankings are more based on the amount of research the universities do, number of papers published from each university, amount of investments put into the universities, number of A class graduates (or respected people) that come from these universities. I've obvious that we won't do amazingly, we just don't have the money to secure spots in the higher positions .

However, I sometimes download lecture notes from MIT because their engineering course, is exactly the same as mine, we do the same physics, same maths, same applied maths etc... so our degree is by no means worth any less than a MIT student , they just have a flip load more money to spend on research, have been equipment, and also attract the best of the best students from the world (so it makes sense that they would have better scientists, engineers, etc, they start with people that are the cream of the crop ).

Um, otherwise, I just suggest the government makes studying a more viable option for kids, like give kids insentives etc.

That's the primary point of a University if you think about it Research. If I do recall correctly though, 2009 was a peak for UCT in those rankings. They have a whole breakdown of the rating system they use but really, if you have poor research quality that directly correlates to poor graduate quality (since those same researchers are the ones that teach undergrads). P.S. THEQ is probably seen as the most objective ranking and that has a very different story to tell.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

True statement.

Even though UNISA has 200K students (and growing at an astronomical rate), most students will only not qualify for an honours course as they will be contempt with just passing and thats it. Its very easy to get a degree, but it requires a lot of discipline and sacrifice to do so with good marks.

Couldn't agree more. I don't know what it is with my age-group (I'm at UCT) but they around 80-90% seem content on 'passing' the course rather than excelling at it. Obviously it is difficult to excel if you 'cram' for every test and bunk lectures frequently. It's not that to pass to be quite honest.

Just wondering about the workload at UNISA - my brother dropped out of Stellies and he is doing UNISA instead (politics). Basically he has sat around and done nothing for around 3 months because he did all the MCQ quizzes that they have in one day (he is doing 5 courses). Moreover, he claims he summarised all the textbooks in 1 week. He is doing 2nd year politics.

 

[UnUnOctium]

Couldn't agree more. I don't know what it is with my age-group (I'm at UCT) but they around 80-90% seem content on 'passing' the course rather than excelling at it. Obviously it is difficult to excel if you 'cram' for every test and bunk lectures frequently. It's not that to pass to be quite honest.

Just wondering about the workload at UNISA - my brother dropped out of Stellies and he is doing UNISA instead (politics). Basically he has sat around and done nothing for around 3 months because he did all the MCQ quizzes that they have in one day (he is doing 5 courses). Moreover, he claims he summarised all the textbooks in 1 week. He is doing 2nd year politics.

I hear you 'undies' talk about random crap every time I walk to my office. I remember some stoner sounding dude saying "we have to conserve energy because like, the oil is dying out". Also some guy saying "crazy $h!t, he made the derivative like negative 0!". I'm new to UCT (started postgrad here) but I sure as hell hope these 2 are very isolated incidents, though I do hear of many an undie failing their ass off

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

just s few years ago Zimbabwe's education system was better than ours...BETTER than OURS, the economic powerhouse of Africa...playing second fiddle to a fooked up little country. How do you explain that? I just don't get it. :erm

Very easy, Bob was a teacher and put value into education. Also many ex-pats can tell you that even in the days of Rhodesia, the blacks had access to very good education.

On the other hand, many of our leaders had access to only Buntu Education. The previous government knew very well that the only thing you cannot take away from a man is his education, so instead they denied the quality education that whites got to the masses. This is apartheid's real legacy. Generations where denied the chance to better themselves.

Even though I see many non-white parents care about their childs education, how can they be expected to understand the challenges of tertiary education, or even just matric, when they themselves only had the opportunity to achieve the equivalent of grade 7.

 

[dlk001]

so our degree is by no means worth any less than a MIT student , they just have a flip load more money to spend on research, have been equipment, and also attract the best of the best students from the world (so it makes sense that they would have better scientists, engineers, etc, they start with people that are the cream of the crop ).

+1 I've noticed that private companies do not just throw money into US universities, they also collaborate in research, technology transfer which is why US universities have so many patents. This is probably why they attract the best professors.

 

[zulgin]

+1 I've noticed that private companies do not just throw money into US universities, they also collaborate in research, technology transfer which is why US universities have so many patents. This is probably why they attract the best professors.

the US's chancellor Johan Rupert also threw the government a big toffie with their language policy , this attracted a lot of profesors who didn't like to be forced to their in a 2nd language.

 

[Other Pineapple Smurf]

...Just wondering about the workload at UNISA - my brother dropped out of Stellies and he is doing UNISA instead (politics). Basically he has sat around and done nothing for around 3 months because he did all the MCQ quizzes that they have in one day (he is doing 5 courses). Moreover, he claims he summarised all the textbooks in 1 week. He is doing 2nd year politics.

UNISA workload may be less than full time Universities, but that is not say the end results are not the same. Sounds more like he is doing a 1st level module, these are piss easy but its more an effort to get students use to the UNISA system. (UNISA recently moved some first level modules to second level status. Also MCQ are also only reserved for 1st level, you might get one for 2nd level, the rest are written.).

Hell, most of my 1st level exams I studies the night before. Only time I opened the books.


2nd level modules are a hard nut hitting reality that its no longer play time. I'm here and can say that I'm putting in about 100hrs prep per module, you need to do 12 modules for 2nd level (about 2yrs study, 3-4 per semester).

3rd level I've heard is not for kids. This is where the real sacrifice and discipline comes in.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

I hear you 'undies' talk about random crap every time I walk to my office. I remember some stoner sounding dude saying "we have to conserve energy because like, the oil is dying out". Also some guy saying "crazy $h!t, he made the derivative like negative 0!". I'm new to UCT (started postgrad here) but I sure as hell hope these 2 are very isolated incidents, though I do hear of many an undie failing their ass off

Hmm..definitely sounds like you must be in the engineering faculty? The only stuff I hear coming out of lecturers' offices are about share options/evaluation, exchange rates, accounting etc. Yes, I'm a Commerce student I heard the maths is pretty tough in 2nd year in engineering, have a few mates doing it. 2 have already dropped out, some others are precariously close to dropping out. There are about 2 or 3 doing very well in the maths though.

UNISA workload may be less than full time Universities, but that is not say the end results are not the same. Sounds more like he is doing a 1st level module, these are piss easy but its more an effort to get students use to the UNISA system. (UNISA recently moved some first level modules to second level status. Also MCQ are also only reserved for 1st level, you might get one for 2nd level, the rest are written.).

Hell, most of my 1st level exams I studies the night before. Only time I opened the books.


2nd level modules are a hard nut hitting reality that its no longer play time. I'm here and can say that I'm putting in about 100hrs prep per module, you need to do 12 modules for 2nd level (about 2yrs study, 3-4 per semester).

3rd level I've heard is not for kids. This is where the real sacrifice and discipline comes in.

I see. The reason I ask was because he did this 'tactic' last semester and he failed a couple of the modules, yet he claims studying earlier won't help him as he won't remember it at all. Also in one module last semester, he studied for the 'wrong' exam as he was confused between the two dates. That is just not on.

 

[dlk001]

Hmm..definitely sounds like you must be in the engineering faculty? The only stuff I hear coming out of lecturers' offices are about share options/evaluation, exchange rates, accounting etc. Yes, I'm a Commerce student Yeah, heard the maths is pretty tough in 2nd year in engineering, have a few mates doing it. 2 have already dropped out, some others are precariously close to dropping out. There are about 2 or 3 doing very well in the maths though.

Are you also at UCT? Where does UCT BCom rank versus say UJ and Wits?

 

[Sl8er]

Very easy, Bob was a teacher and put value into education. Also many ex-pats can tell you that even in the days of Rhodesia, the blacks had access to very good education.

On the other hand, many of our leaders had access to only Buntu Education. The previous government knew very well that the only thing you cannot take away from a man is his education, so instead they denied the quality education that whites got to the masses. This is apartheid's real legacy. Generations where denied the chance to better themselves.

Even though I see many non-white parents care about their childs education, how can they be expected to understand the challenges of tertiary education, or even just matric, when they themselves only had the opportunity to achieve the equivalent of grade 7.

True, true. But what about the Thabo Mbeki's and those lot. (He had an Oxford degree, maybe more -I speak under correction. Nelson Mandela himself had some very good qualifications. These people weren't "stupid.")

My point is, there were(are?) SOME educated people in government...but it seems they choose to rather focus on "how can I make myself and my buddies rich," instead of, "how can enrich the future of this country...of these people." That is where that scary "African trend" comes in.

But yes, I agree...this IS the legacy of apartheid. It's been 15yrs though...the penny has to drop sometime. Will it be too late, when it does though.

I don't know...this is sad stuff.

 

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

Are you also at UCT? Where does UCT BCom rank versus say UJ and Wits?

I wouldn't know. Is there even a ranking between SA universities that compares different degrees?

I'm guessing the engineering courses are pretty much the same because of the international recognition of engineering degrees.

 

[zulgin]

Are you also at UCT? Where does UCT BCom rank versus say UJ and Wits?

UCT, Wits and Tukies made the top 300 afaik for social sciences

 

[dlk001]

Even though I see many non-white parents care about their childs education, how can they be expected to understand the challenges of tertiary education, or even just matric, when they themselves only had the opportunity to achieve the equivalent of grade 7.

+1 Sad and true.