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- Thread starter xtermin8or
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@kokey: well that was a passionate post (from london) but unfortunately it's all hokey 
It is interesting that the murder, rape figures (whatever) that you mention are little different to the ones quoted on nationmaster (even if those from 2000). Also - you mention a figure of $142billion in apartheid debt... I'm sure(?) I saw an article the other day mentioning the final repayment on $18 billion in apartheid debt. Point being - (a common forumite refrain) - if you can't point at a link (a verifiable quote) - then you are simply spouting hot air.
Same with this quote:
"The new figure put us at the 10th in the world if all crimes were equal. Unfortunately we're still pretty high with violent crimes, but even with those were aren't even the champions anymore, just with rape."
The champions anymore? In comparison too? Link? And spoken as only a person a world away could. What do you mean - we? Don't comment from your safe little haven "it comes as a shock to us that we also get to experience of the mess we left the rest of the country in". No - most of us have been here since before and the start of our great democracy - so there in no "mess we left the rest of the country in." We're still here - WhereTF are you?
"Well if South Africa released national crime stats more than once per year they would be about the only country in the world to do just that." From what I remember sneeze rate on the tube used to measured and released monthly - how can you make such a statement - in any 'civilised' country 'everything' is measured - why would that not include crime? Please post justification for said statement.
The new government, to protect themselves from what happens with the rest of Africa that is left with debt, had to do some drastic things to lower this debt. Raising taxes would have been catastrophic, so they had to make some hard decisions to cut some very important budgets. Health, police, education and military budgets were slashed almost by half, while at the same time instead of catering for the minory these services had to cater for the majority.
Once again - could have sworn I read (just the other day) - that the present government had the option of contesting this apartheid debt - having it removed - but they chose to honour it (who knows why) - but - once again - if you can't substantiate don't bother telling us about it. And - how does spending 30 billion (or was it 48?) on arms equate to military budgets being slashed? How does fat government salaries, mismanagement, corruption equate to budgets being cut in health, police, etc... In fact - once again - I seem to remember the police budget steadily increasing year by year... but once again all hearsay.
As to the rest of your <rant>
I understand that in the 80's we were used to very little crime in our safe neighbourhoods, while the rest of the country lived in poverty unless they mowed your lawn and cleaned your toilet, it comes as a shock to us that we also get to experience of the mess we left the rest of the country in.
Until someone posts a link - or something verifiable - the issue of crime pre-94 is hearsay. There seems the illusion that apartheid was this hard stark line - south africans did share some of their lives together - and from what I remember the media were as vigilant then as they are now. We lived in a police state, in a state of emergency - I cannot speak for the years I wasn't here - but - (as I've posted before) - the police had a shoot to kill policy and the death penalty was in place - I see little different in the headlines of today verse then regarding crime - except it has become exponentially more and far more gruesome... since when did we have babies being raped and people having their skin boiled off?
Experiencing crime might just make us wake up and do something about the crime which has been affecting the whole country for decades or the poverty which has been the real cause of it.
As said - wtf do you know? Might make us wake up? From london? Right.
It is interesting that the murder, rape figures (whatever) that you mention are little different to the ones quoted on nationmaster (even if those from 2000). Also - you mention a figure of $142billion in apartheid debt... I'm sure(?) I saw an article the other day mentioning the final repayment on $18 billion in apartheid debt. Point being - (a common forumite refrain) - if you can't point at a link (a verifiable quote) - then you are simply spouting hot air.Same with this quote:
"The new figure put us at the 10th in the world if all crimes were equal. Unfortunately we're still pretty high with violent crimes, but even with those were aren't even the champions anymore, just with rape."
The champions anymore? In comparison too? Link? And spoken as only a person a world away could. What do you mean - we? Don't comment from your safe little haven "it comes as a shock to us that we also get to experience of the mess we left the rest of the country in". No - most of us have been here since before and the start of our great democracy - so there in no "mess we left the rest of the country in." We're still here - WhereTF are you?
"Well if South Africa released national crime stats more than once per year they would be about the only country in the world to do just that." From what I remember sneeze rate on the tube used to measured and released monthly - how can you make such a statement - in any 'civilised' country 'everything' is measured - why would that not include crime? Please post justification for said statement.
The new government, to protect themselves from what happens with the rest of Africa that is left with debt, had to do some drastic things to lower this debt. Raising taxes would have been catastrophic, so they had to make some hard decisions to cut some very important budgets. Health, police, education and military budgets were slashed almost by half, while at the same time instead of catering for the minory these services had to cater for the majority.
Once again - could have sworn I read (just the other day) - that the present government had the option of contesting this apartheid debt - having it removed - but they chose to honour it (who knows why) - but - once again - if you can't substantiate don't bother telling us about it. And - how does spending 30 billion (or was it 48?) on arms equate to military budgets being slashed? How does fat government salaries, mismanagement, corruption equate to budgets being cut in health, police, etc... In fact - once again - I seem to remember the police budget steadily increasing year by year... but once again all hearsay.
As to the rest of your <rant>
I understand that in the 80's we were used to very little crime in our safe neighbourhoods, while the rest of the country lived in poverty unless they mowed your lawn and cleaned your toilet, it comes as a shock to us that we also get to experience of the mess we left the rest of the country in.
Until someone posts a link - or something verifiable - the issue of crime pre-94 is hearsay. There seems the illusion that apartheid was this hard stark line - south africans did share some of their lives together - and from what I remember the media were as vigilant then as they are now. We lived in a police state, in a state of emergency - I cannot speak for the years I wasn't here - but - (as I've posted before) - the police had a shoot to kill policy and the death penalty was in place - I see little different in the headlines of today verse then regarding crime - except it has become exponentially more and far more gruesome... since when did we have babies being raped and people having their skin boiled off?
Experiencing crime might just make us wake up and do something about the crime which has been affecting the whole country for decades or the poverty which has been the real cause of it.
As said - wtf do you know? Might make us wake up? From london? Right.
DigitalSoldier
Honorary Master
Angelo said:
I know they do! its still good news they do make arrests even though they are just as corrupt as you're government
xtermin8or
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ajak said:
CERTAINLY NOT YOU, IGNORAMUS
I earlier said that people who post on these forums are learned, with the capacity for independent thought
I guess I was wrong, and this is made glaringly clear by this post
Steve Tshwete passed away in 2002, please explain how he provided a written answer to parliament this week
this leaves me to question the validity of any of the statements and stats made by some people on this forum.
Educate yourself before commenting on this forum.
Also the only verifiable crime data is Police stats ( as they are based on actual reported crimes ) any other stat is a thumbsuck at best
@koki...
Oh so we must celebrate that we're 10th in the world? According to whom are we 10th for murder anyway? Our crime situation did not go down significantly between 2000 and 2005 according to the official police stats. We're still first in the world for gun murders per capita. We also have the highest rape rate in the world of all time anywhere in the world. More people get raped here every minute than anywhere else in the world. Yeah, let's be happy about that shall we.
1 gruesome unprovoked murder is too many - we have between 50 and 150 every single day. Not to metion the fact that crime is currently so bad that people are being shot inside their cars off our national highways for a freaking cellphone. But no, we're illusioned and should be happy a couple of arrests are being made. One day when we get this years "official" stats, I can promise you it will be suitably massaged to reflect a more 'positive' truth. The soccer world cup is coming here, who honestly believes the government will actually start telling the real truth about crime.
So while you sit in your cosy little home with the sh!tty weather that england has to offer, believe me, millions of south african are living in perpetual fear of their lives.
Oh so we must celebrate that we're 10th in the world? According to whom are we 10th for murder anyway? Our crime situation did not go down significantly between 2000 and 2005 according to the official police stats. We're still first in the world for gun murders per capita. We also have the highest rape rate in the world of all time anywhere in the world. More people get raped here every minute than anywhere else in the world. Yeah, let's be happy about that shall we.
1 gruesome unprovoked murder is too many - we have between 50 and 150 every single day. Not to metion the fact that crime is currently so bad that people are being shot inside their cars off our national highways for a freaking cellphone. But no, we're illusioned and should be happy a couple of arrests are being made. One day when we get this years "official" stats, I can promise you it will be suitably massaged to reflect a more 'positive' truth. The soccer world cup is coming here, who honestly believes the government will actually start telling the real truth about crime.So while you sit in your cosy little home with the sh!tty weather that england has to offer, believe me, millions of south african are living in perpetual fear of their lives.
xtermin8or
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If we are to believe that South Africa is gripped by fear, that crime is rampantly out of control, that everyone is **** scared and hiding behind locked gates and burglar bars,
tell me why are our shopping centers and restaurants full during the day and night, why do thousands of people walk around freely
And how do the thousands of tourists who visit our shores every month escape the terrible crime wave unharmed
Just a thought
tell me why are our shopping centers and restaurants full during the day and night, why do thousands of people walk around freely
And how do the thousands of tourists who visit our shores every month escape the terrible crime wave unharmed
Just a thought
xtermin8or said:
Actually you're wrong here. The SAPS branches record crimes independently and completely at the on duty police officer's discretion. According to our own research, anything between 8 and 25% of the crimes are often not even recorded (some of these murders
due to various reasons). Also, often some crimes are classified incorrectly. A few months ago there was a case where the victim had a pickaxe sticking out of his back... this particular incident was classified as a suicide. So I'm really sorry, but sometimes it appears that the crime stats are both groomed for release (that's why they take so long to be released) and in fact highly inaccurate. Also, they do not match the reported incidents from the various hospitals. According to figures released by various hospital, fatal gun shot wounds have increased substantially in the last 3 years - which is contrary to the SAPS crime stats. Aslo, according to private security companies and insurance companies, burglaries are also on the increase - particularly armed robberies, though the official police stats once again do not reflect this trend, and in dact suggest an overall decline in crimes. So, sorry, the police stats are not exceptionally reliable, but unfortunately it is the only statistics the government will accept.
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Interesting. Our shopping centers and restaurants are being hit daily by armed gangs. People are living in a state of perpetual fear. They will continue to go on with their lives as best they can, but there is sincere fear in many peoples lives.xtermin8or said:
Also, when last have you seen a house that does not have at the minimum burglar bars and security gates? Incidentally, you cannot get isurance cover if you do not have these things. In fact, in some areas in Jhb, if you do not have a linked alarm to armed response, then you will not enjoy insurance cover. I fail to see your connection here: there are countries in the world where the citizens don't even know what a burglar bar is, but here it is considered minimum security.
As far as tourists are concerned: tourists are now officially being warned against visting South Africa due to crime.
Thousands of people do walk around freely sure, but this still does not mean there is not a crime wave here. Really dude, if you think there is no crime wave in SA, then you are seriously not very well informed.
xtermin8or said:
You speak like a person who doesn't even live in this country. Why don't you take a drive around that suburbs in Sandton and other areas of Joburg. Count how many houses you see without 15 footwalls, razor-wire and electrical fencing and report back.
Why don't you drive around Sandton at night and see how many people are walking the streets?
You say shopping centres and restaurants are full day and night and its true, but this is because these places provide a false sense of security. There is "secure" parking and guards walking around. But as the incident at Kitchen Bar in Fourways shows, it means nothing when something happens.
Tell me how many people do you see walking around parks and gardens in Joburg at night?
You must live in a different world.
xtermin8or
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What I was trying to show is that you people are trying to paint a picture of South Africa as a war zone crippled by crime or the fear of crime, that just is not there - or if it is - it affects just a small number of people
It is sad, the Apartheid govt. kept you so sheltered that now you can't even live a normal life, effectively turning you into wusses
I'll have you know I have no burglar bars on my windows, no anti-hijacking system or tracking device in my car, and I feel free to walk the streets of any suburb or city day or night.
I never said there is no crime, and a zero crime rate would be ideal, but to perpetuate a perception that people are living in a state of panic is unfair, and does nothing to help the country
It is sad, the Apartheid govt. kept you so sheltered that now you can't even live a normal life, effectively turning you into wusses
I'll have you know I have no burglar bars on my windows, no anti-hijacking system or tracking device in my car, and I feel free to walk the streets of any suburb or city day or night.
I never said there is no crime, and a zero crime rate would be ideal, but to perpetuate a perception that people are living in a state of panic is unfair, and does nothing to help the country
xtermin8or said:What I was trying to show is that you people are trying to paint a picture of South Africa as a war zone crippled by crime or the fear of crime, that just is not there - or if it is - it affects just a small number of people
It is sad, the Apartheid govt. kept you so sheltered that now you can't even live a normal life, effectively turning you into wusses
I'll have you know I have no burglar bars on my windows, no anti-hijacking system or tracking device in my car, and I feel free to walk the streets of any suburb or city day or night.
I never said there is no crime, and a zero crime rate would be ideal, but to perpetuate a perception that people are living in a state of panic is unfair, and does nothing to help the country
So where do you live? Not in Jhb I would guess. But you do seem to be delusional about what is actually going on around you.
xtermin8or
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I'm sorry I should have said I actually do live in Gauteng
I'm sorry exterminator. Compared to many other countries (who are not at war) we are in the grip of a tremendously severe crime wave. If you think we're wusses then so be it, but I for one would love to live in a country where my kids can grow up without there being any risk whatsoever that they may be raped or abducted and killed for muti, or that if I go away on business that my wife will be relatively safe from gangs of armed burglars (who happen to arm themselves with automatic assault weapons ).
Oh, and this has been mentioned before: victims of crime (like I have been several times before) do tend to have a more realistic view of the reality of the situation. All your posts seem to suggest that so far you are lucky enough to not actually have been affected by crime. Thank your lucky stars mate, but you better wake up to the reality that no one is safe in South Africa
).Oh, and this has been mentioned before: victims of crime (like I have been several times before) do tend to have a more realistic view of the reality of the situation. All your posts seem to suggest that so far you are lucky enough to not actually have been affected by crime. Thank your lucky stars mate, but you better wake up to the reality that no one is safe in South Africa
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xtermin8or said:
a more recent article (on a very brief search) for xtermin8or (perhaps forumites should practice what they preach)
Poor police literacy hampers justice November 08 2004
An investigation by Independent Newspapers confirms a finding published recently by the SA Institute of Race Relations that the department of justice's work is frequently hampered by the SA Police Service, as 25 percent of its members are "functionally illiterate".
xtermin8or has mentioned he lives in Soweto (or did?)
Just to clarify my position. I have lived in South Africa full time until 3 and a half years ago, now I only spend a few months per year in South Africa. I don't live in the UK because I have run away from the crime in South Africa.
From 1999 I lived in Johannesburg, and spent time in Johannesburg city central at night almost weekly, and even went into areas such as Hillbrow on average once per month, at night.
Sure, I did experience crime, my car got broken into regularly enough that I never bothered having a radio. My house was robbed and cleared out at gunpoint. I also know people personally who got hijacked and I witnessed a cash in transit robbery at a mall.
The reason why I don't go around screaming 'crime is getting out of hand' is because I didn't grow up entirely in white reserves with my blinkers on. During my childhood we lived in parts of kwazulu-Natal and Qwaqwa and I also went through other similar areas regularly. I have witnessed much more serious violent crime there than I did in Gauteng. It's not a nice thing for a 5 year old kid to come across a shot and bleeding person while playing in the back yard.
Yes, crime is serious in South Africa, but this is neither a new thing or such an unusual thing compared to the rest of world. Previously South African cities were remarkably safe considering that the majority of the country lived in poverty, but this was unnaturally so since the people who lived in bad conditions and crime were prevented from entering the cities except under extreme control.
My mother lives in the Free State in a house with no fence, no burglar bars, no security gates. It's on the edge of town next to an open field so anyone can just walk in. In 13 years the wheelbarrow was stolen from the back yard and a plastic garden furniture set. That's it.
With regards to the cities, or especially Gauteng. Crime and robberies were getting particularly bad half a decade ago, but this has been improving. Apart from the statistics that show this I can say I have witnesses a decrease in people's level of fear. I also know this since I speak to people from Europe quite regularly who go to visit South Africa as tourists, they also perceive that crime is becoming less of a threat to their visits.
As police budgets improve and the organisation of police improves, and economy improves as it's doing, crime is improving. You can't just take billions of rands and put everyone in prison or bring back apartheid laws to curb crime, it's a gradual process and the trend seems to be going in a positive direction.
Those of you who still scream 'crime is out of hand' I dare you to suggest what you think the government is supposed to do about it?
From 1999 I lived in Johannesburg, and spent time in Johannesburg city central at night almost weekly, and even went into areas such as Hillbrow on average once per month, at night.
Sure, I did experience crime, my car got broken into regularly enough that I never bothered having a radio. My house was robbed and cleared out at gunpoint. I also know people personally who got hijacked and I witnessed a cash in transit robbery at a mall.
The reason why I don't go around screaming 'crime is getting out of hand' is because I didn't grow up entirely in white reserves with my blinkers on. During my childhood we lived in parts of kwazulu-Natal and Qwaqwa and I also went through other similar areas regularly. I have witnessed much more serious violent crime there than I did in Gauteng. It's not a nice thing for a 5 year old kid to come across a shot and bleeding person while playing in the back yard.
Yes, crime is serious in South Africa, but this is neither a new thing or such an unusual thing compared to the rest of world. Previously South African cities were remarkably safe considering that the majority of the country lived in poverty, but this was unnaturally so since the people who lived in bad conditions and crime were prevented from entering the cities except under extreme control.
My mother lives in the Free State in a house with no fence, no burglar bars, no security gates. It's on the edge of town next to an open field so anyone can just walk in. In 13 years the wheelbarrow was stolen from the back yard and a plastic garden furniture set. That's it.
With regards to the cities, or especially Gauteng. Crime and robberies were getting particularly bad half a decade ago, but this has been improving. Apart from the statistics that show this I can say I have witnesses a decrease in people's level of fear. I also know this since I speak to people from Europe quite regularly who go to visit South Africa as tourists, they also perceive that crime is becoming less of a threat to their visits.
As police budgets improve and the organisation of police improves, and economy improves as it's doing, crime is improving. You can't just take billions of rands and put everyone in prison or bring back apartheid laws to curb crime, it's a gradual process and the trend seems to be going in a positive direction.
Those of you who still scream 'crime is out of hand' I dare you to suggest what you think the government is supposed to do about it?
The country today is not the same country of 3 and a half years ago - and that is how short the time scale has been - we have gone from a state of freedom to a state of anarchy - and we are now rapidly sliding towards a police state (due to this gub's mistaken belief that thousands of police and road blocks stop crime!?) Read this thread here - for measures that should be/could be/should have been in place already - but no - we're the whingers.kokey said:
@kokey
The reason why I don't go around screaming 'crime is getting out of hand' is because I didn't grow up entirely in white reserves with my blinkers on. During my childhood we lived in parts of kwazulu-Natal and Qwaqwa and I also went through other similar areas regularly. I have witnessed much more serious violent crime there than I did in Gauteng. It's not a nice thing for a 5 year old kid to come across a shot and bleeding person while playing in the back yard.
Yes, crime is serious in South Africa, but this is neither a new thing or such an unusual thing compared to the rest of world. Previously South African cities were remarkably safe considering that the majority of the country lived in poverty, but this was unnaturally so since the people who lived in bad conditions and crime were prevented from entering the cities except under extreme control.
With regards to the cities, or especially Gauteng. Crime and robberies were getting particularly bad half a decade ago, but this has been improving. Apart from the statistics that show this I can say I have witnesses a decrease in people's level of fear. I also know this since I speak to people from Europe quite regularly who go to visit South Africa as tourists, they also perceive that crime is becoming less of a threat to their visits.
As police budgets improve and the organisation of police improves, and economy improves as it's doing, crime is improving. You can't just take billions of rands and put everyone in prison or bring back apartheid laws to curb crime, it's a gradual process and the trend seems to be going in a positive direction.
WTF do you know. Zero. Ya, you are going to run around screaming in London. Catch a wakeup - don't you pay attention to the news? Oh - but that must be difficult from London!! (You obviously haven't spoken to any of the dead or mugged tourists?)
If you would like more visit you local friendly search engine
oh - and the real kicker:
Those of you who still scream 'crime is out of hand' I dare you to suggest what you think the government is supposed to do about it?
Tut.
kilo89 I am not going to bother to quote your drivel. You seem to have conveniently forgotten that I did mention that I have been spending a few months per year in South Africa over the past three years. Do you think I am blind as to what is happening?
Yes, I'm well aware of the news. But it's fairly narrow minded to measure the level of seriousness according to news reports. Let me show you an example of news headlines for a single, and certainly not unusual day, in the UK:
Terrifying' sex attack on girl"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5153450.stm
"US tourist critical after attack"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5153072.stm
"Cash stolen in town bank hold-up"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5154000.stm
"Four officers struck by vehicle"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5153620.stm
"Man is shot in leg in town attack"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4800710.stm
"Body is found in hospital grounds"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4836688.stm
To go on anecdotal quoting of random news happenings to support your measure of the seriousness of a sitation is a bit dodgy. In any case since you accuse me of not quoting references when I show links to statistics compiled by Institute of Security Studies (which quotes historical data from the SAPS) while you instead rely and hammer on using the data from nationmaster which uses statistics over 6 years old and claim to use details from the CIA world factbook that doesn't even have crime figures as the only support of your views I can see this leading nowhere.
I end this argument with you so you can drown in your own bias. You should be the one who isn't living in South Africa because it's such a crime ridden hell hole, why aren't you?
Yes, I'm well aware of the news. But it's fairly narrow minded to measure the level of seriousness according to news reports. Let me show you an example of news headlines for a single, and certainly not unusual day, in the UK:
Terrifying' sex attack on girl"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5153450.stm
"US tourist critical after attack"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/5153072.stm
"Cash stolen in town bank hold-up"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5154000.stm
"Four officers struck by vehicle"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5153620.stm
"Man is shot in leg in town attack"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4800710.stm
"Body is found in hospital grounds"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4836688.stm
To go on anecdotal quoting of random news happenings to support your measure of the seriousness of a sitation is a bit dodgy. In any case since you accuse me of not quoting references when I show links to statistics compiled by Institute of Security Studies (which quotes historical data from the SAPS) while you instead rely and hammer on using the data from nationmaster which uses statistics over 6 years old and claim to use details from the CIA world factbook that doesn't even have crime figures as the only support of your views I can see this leading nowhere.
I end this argument with you so you can drown in your own bias. You should be the one who isn't living in South Africa because it's such a crime ridden hell hole, why aren't you?
Don't waste my time - have you been saving those pitiful examples?? Don't make me start posting url's for links to local violent crime!!!? Sicko. Anecdotal????!!!!kokey said:
And I quoted your own link back at you, ie, Crime: Perception is reality - a BANK - posting the best news they can find. Pleeze!!!
Try going to iol.co.za and dialing in: murder, rape, crime
Then come post on this forum