SARS Exceeds Revenue Target

Well so far in our area: "no telkom lines - redistribution to pdi; poor, pot holed, roads; police rarely if ever turns up on complaints, only hospital is about 20kms (been there once, not a single doc on duty for emergency)

But! Wait, we pay taxes & poor to no returns from Guvamunt!

Precisely, Amy_R.

We don't expect the government to provide, and have a monopoly over the provision of, groceries or televisions or shoes or countless other goods and services. I find it laughable that VJB even had the gaul to cite Telkom as a "benefit" from taxation. Ha!

VBJ, would you care to give me a salient reason why the aforementioned services cannot be provided by private businesses and voluntary exchange?
 
VBJ, would you care to give me a salient reason why the aforementioned services cannot be provided by private businesses and voluntary exchange?

Because the poor couldn't afford them and most of those are basic services or "rights". You're thinking very middle class here, of course having no taxes and simply paying ADT for your security and netcare for your private hospitals etc is great for those who can afford it, but the country would turn to **** almost instantly. The poor would have no police force, no government hospitals, no water, housing, roadworks, social grants etc etc. It would be completely unworkable. Plus they would have very little benefit from the eradication of tax seeing as they hardly pay it and buy a lot of vat exempt goods.

Perhaps if you had some sort of tax system whereby some of these private companies have to offer their basic services free to people who earn less than x it could work. It would be a far better system than having government running everything for sure.
 
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Because the poor couldn't afford them and most of those are basic services or "rights". You're thinking very middle class here, of course having no taxes and simply paying ADT for your security and netcare for your private hospitals etc is great for those who can afford it, but the country would turn to **** almost instantly. The poor would have no police force, no government hospitals, no water, housing, roadworks, social grants etc etc. It would be completely unworkable. Plus they would have very little benefit from the eradication of tax seeing as they hardly pay it and buy a lot of vat exempt goods.

So your reason for not having private business and voluntary exchange supply these goods and services is that some people are poor?

The moral argument kicks in here, how is it just to steal from some to benefit others? This is hardly charitable or altruistic.

Then we have the utilitarian argument, can government actually provide these things? Well, yes they can, but there's no incentive for them to be efficient, cost-effective or to offer quality in the way private businesses do. The result is what we see all around us: shoddy roads, rolling blackouts, hospitals where you're more likely to die by going to one in the first place etc. etc.

(I'm not going to debate here how I disagree that these are rights. I'd prefer to call them "entitlements".) In any case, going back to your original rationale, rather than having the government provide for all these "rights", if the problem is that people are too poor to afford such goods and services, then isn't the logical and most direct means of addressing the problem to make people less poor. And by that, I mean providing more capital for businesses, more opportunities for people to become employed and earn something rather than nothing and gaining skills along the way, thus having competition among the labour force driving up productivity and wage rates.

What are the best things to do to get those results? Simple. Make government less of a burden and less interventionist in the economy. Drastically cut taxes, reduce the regulatory costs on businesses, incentivize people to utilize capital by making it easier to start businesses, remove government barriers to entry for the labour force like the minimum wage and race requirements.

I could go on forever about what can be sliced, cut, removed and quashed. The simple premise is this: Who do you really believe knows what better to do in terms of utilizing capital, committing investment and operating charity? The government, or private people and firms who specialize in such things?

Perhaps if you had some sort of tax system whereby some of these private companies have to offer their basic services free to people who earn less than x it could work. It would be a far better system than having government running everything for sure.

I like that last sentence. The analogy I use is this: when we want to stay in a hotel, it's not like the only choice we have is between some crummy flea-ridden motel and a 5 star resort. Yet, when thinking about the government providing goods and services, we are led into this false dichotomy.

We think, if something is "privatized" or not provided for by the government, it must be like that 5 star resort and most people won't be able to afford it, so our solution is to force everyone to only use that crummy flea-ridden motel, or steal from others in the hope of being able to provide a 5 star resort for everyone. This is absurd.

The whole reason why different standards of hotels are available and affordable is because of free enterprise and competition. Hoteliers know that most people aren't going to be able to afford 5 star luxury, but they know they can make a profit providing some kind of hotel, so they cater for the needs of people who don't have a lot of money.

So what we don't need is the government providing services or forcing other people to provide services. We need to let enterprise and competition work. Right now even the poorest of the poor have access to cellular telephones. The government never decreed this a right, and yet the market is so efficient and so eager to satisfy consumer wants it caters for everyone.

As I said above, the real solution is to help people become considerably less poor. We won't achieve this with taxation or entitlements, only with freedom and commerce.
 
Precisely, Amy_R.

We don't expect the government to provide, and have a monopoly over the provision of, groceries or televisions or shoes or countless other goods and services. I find it laughable that VJB even had the gaul to cite Telkom as a "benefit" from taxation. Ha!

VBJ, would you care to give me a salient reason why the aforementioned services cannot be provided by private businesses and voluntary exchange?

Some things are too big for private business. Do you think ADT is going to protect you when your utopia gets invaded by non-utopians?

There's a difference between wishful thinking and reality.

I agree wholeheartedly that there is unbelievable waste in the current system but there must be regulation to protect those that cannot protect themselves.
 
Some things are too big for private business. Do you think ADT is going to protect you when your utopia gets invaded by non-utopians?

Firstly, I take issue that you characterize my propositions as utopian. I never made any claims to utopia, I simply affirmed that theft is unjust, even when perpetrated by the government under supposedly altruistic auspices, and that commerce and enterprise unhampered by the government are more efficient and have greater incentives to serve the needs of consumers.

Your next claim, I think, relates to some kind of national defense against an invading army. Well, when we look at history and the present, we see the that the State is far more warmongering and prone to mass slaughter than any kind of "private crime" ever could be. When gaging whether or not to engage in armed conflict against invaders I'd think that one possible solution would simply be to bribe the invaders. Soldiers in invading State armies are usually unwilling conscripts or volunteers without other opportunities. A society with no government, or extremely limited government, wouldn't really have enemies, it would engage in free and open trade and be extremely wealthy. Perhaps it would be wealthy enough to hire mercenaries and bribe enemies.

Some of the smallest "nation-states" in Europe like Luxembourg and Switzerland are peaceful and extremely wealthy. Odd, you would expect small, rich countries to be vulnerable to invasion by larger ones, yet they don't have standing armies. The Swiss, in fact, have a "citizen army", allowing their people to keep military arms in their own homes!

In any case, some great work has been done on this by Hans-Hermann Hoppe. Check out the introduction to his book "The Myth of National Defense".

I agree wholeheartedly that there is unbelievable waste in the current system but there must be regulation to protect those that cannot protect themselves.

Ask the poor if they're being "protected" by the government now. Ask them if they're benefiting much. Ask if they wouldn't prefer to have their basic needs become cheaper and access to employment. Ask the middle class if they think they're happy paying large portions of their income as taxation when they struggle to make ends meet for a decent lifestyle. Ask the businesses and the wealthy if they're willing to recapitalize profits for expansion and to keep investment in South Africa contending with ever increasing taxation and government interference.

As I said above, why do we think the government is better at looking after the needy and the vulnerable than charities? Do you not think that with less taxation and more wealth for everyone that businesses would not expand and people would not find more jobs? Do you think charities would find it harder to raise funds? Charities can't raise funds and continue operating if they cannot convince their donors that they are being efficient and making a difference. The government does not have this incentive, it can take and promise until kingdom come and not give a hoot. The solutions is voluntaryism, not coercion.
 
Hence the taxpayer did not enter it correctly. I see it multiple times every day. There are problems where there is human involvement but that happens after assessment.

oh right so a human - that being me - enters the exact correct information and gets an assessment which reflects "nil". me - goes back to check and there is no information on the system whatsoever. i can get other tax practitioners who can verify this very fact so there you have it in a nutshell.
 
I wonder what percentage of tax payer revenue that target is set at?
 
Appropriate signature Hard Rain

"The State is the great fiction through which everyone endeavours to live at the expense of everyone else." - Frederic Bastiat.
 
@ Hard Rain. I think there's a damn good reason for governments and taxation. Most government services cannot be left to the profit driven private sector to provide. Governments can operate at a loss by running deficits but private businesses can't do the same without going insolvent. In any case the only incentive for pvt business is profit
 
I could go on forever about what can be sliced, cut, removed and quashed. The simple premise is this: Who do you really believe knows what better to do in terms of utilizing capital, committing investment and operating charity? The government, or private people and firms who specialize in such things?

We think, if something is "privatized" or not provided for by the government, it must be like that 5 star resort and most people won't be able to afford it, so our solution is to force everyone to only use that crummy flea-ridden motel, or steal from others in the hope of being able to provide a 5 star resort for everyone. This is absurd.
Certainly not the Government in our case.

If this was a private business, lets say Shoprite, it would have a store in each town across the country operating at more or less the same service levels. We don't find this in Government and probably never will, which leads to the conclusion drawn out in the quote below.

Run the country like a business.
Government has not treated municipalities equally. The distribution of spending per resident varies enormously with the metropolitan areas and richer district spending is up to 30 times more than a poor municipality (Magketla, 2006). Moreover, poorer municipalities have not had equal access to government grants for infrastructure and other high priority spending to the extent that more affluent municipalities have had. However, the government’s Fiscal and Financial Commission developed a scheme for municipal spending, the Local Government Equitable Share Formula (LES), which is designed to address this issue and should produce greater equality in spending patterns in years to come (Josie et al, 2006). The envisaged positive impact is yet to materialise. There is strong evidence to suggest that spending patterns discriminate against the rural and poorer communities and reform of the allocations made to local government is needed. Should the LES fulfil its aim in equalising spending, then that reform may prove to be sufficient to deal with the financial aspects of service delivery. However, increased spending will not automatically address the issue of poor service delivery! Increased spending, by itself, is unlikely to solve the institutional hindrances to better service delivery, especially in the rural and poverty-stricken areas of the country.
Furthermore, administrative skills, particularly on budget matters but also in terms of technical skill levels (construction, maintenance, and so forth), are in short supply. Many of the municipalities do not fill important technical vacancies and therefore cannot acquire the necessary skills to discharge their role as providers of service. There are, however, municipalities that function well and there we find competent administrators and managers in place who take the commitment to public service seriously. These municipalities are often able to draw from experienced staff contingents that existed prior to the municipal government reforms.
The effort by government to turn local government into the agent of economic development has led to an unfortunate situation where certain political factions have taken control over municipal governance and are using this platform to foster their own self-interest. As a result, a lack of responsiveness to citizen grievances and outright nepotism and corruption are already widespread phenomena and need to be addressed urgently if they are not to spill over into great social and political unrest.
 
rubbish - it's a known fact that there is sometimes a glitch in the SARS program and can be the mistake on SARS' part. if all the data is entered correctly on e-filing by the taxpayer then there is no reason why the assessment should be incorrect.

Why are these ‘glitchs’ never in the taxpayer’s favour? Surely if pore SARS was subject to arbitrary ‘glitchs’ there would be an even statistical spread of SARS thievery and taxpayer benefit?
 
The great ship that is the government ....

So very good at filling the coffers, yet you ask them a little thing and they are unable to comply, because of their red tape and bureaucracy.

Sickening!
 
Why are these ‘glitchs’ never in the taxpayer’s favour? Surely if pore SARS was subject to arbitrary ‘glitchs’ there would be an even statistical spread of SARS thievery and taxpayer benefit?

Ask the tax practitioners. They make many 'errors' in favor of taxpayers. ;)

Funny how some call it glitches and others are inferring deliberateness. What is it now?

Many people do not own up to making mistakes, and many make it deliberately. Stopping the gaps in a country where many does not want to pay is not easy. SARS is doing a very good job at doing it.
 
snip..
Some of the smallest "nation-states" in Europe like Luxembourg and Switzerland are peaceful and extremely wealthy. Odd, you would expect small, rich countries to be vulnerable to invasion by larger ones, yet they don't have standing armies. The Swiss, in fact, have a "citizen army", allowing their people to keep military arms in their own homes!

Why do you think Switzerland is as wealthy as they are? Who do you think is storing all the ill gotten gains of criminals all over the world (criminals in government and business alike)? Fortunately Governments are wising up to Switzerland and you can expect their status to change and they being forced to open up details of all the waelth being hidden there.

But explain also why there is no nation on earth that complies with your vision? if it so great why does it not exist?
 
Imagine if they could, sorry would tax the Taxi industry? Billions more.

There are task teams looking at the associations but is very difficult. The taxi industry is a good example of what you get when private business is not regulated properly. The kind of stuff Hard Rain dreams about.
 
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