SEACOM's SMW4 cable woes continue

I would also like to know the answer to JustBlack's question, with some detail, and why the EASSy cable doesn't seem to be being used much at all by the ISPs. Though does this give a clue?

http://www.jsltimes.com/eassy-cable-open-business

"Investors include MTN, Neotel, Telkom, Vodacom" ... basically the profiteering cartel group offering 'mobile' pricing are the main investors (and yes, I include Telkom, with their 8ta and lack of interest in DSL services) ... these specifically don't WANT the ISPs to be able to charge even less for bandwidth, thereby competing further with (and embarrassing more) their insanely high bundle data prices, so is it possible they are purposely pricing services too high for the ISPs in order to keep them from taking advantage of this cable? Anyone have any more actual info or references? Maybe they've calculated that they can perversely get more profit in SA with less business on that cable.

Now here's a proper answer... I like people who think... Tick, your answer sounds incredibly likely... Prices are being kept artificially high by the 'big mafia boys'. Although no one in the know will admit to that on this forum ;-)
 
Now here's a proper answer... I like people who think... Tick, your answer sounds incredibly likely... Prices are being kept artificially high by the 'big mafia boys'. Although no one in the know will admit to that on this forum ;-)
That is tinfoil hat stuff. The real questions you need to ask are:

How much did EASSY cost and what is the amortisation period that each operator is using?

How do the EASSY and Seacom cable and build specifications compare?

What is the service level agreement on EASSY as compared to Seacom?

What onward routing dos EASSY use as compared to Seacom and why is it more reliable.

That is what drives up the cost, not conspiracy theories.
 
That is tinfoil hat stuff. The real questions you need to ask are:

Oh please, it's not "tinfoil hat" stuff - it's far, far simpler than that: It's just plain business. It's much simpler than you think:

- Examine the costs and see what course of action leads to the highest profits
- Assume that a company will never do something that causes it to lose more money, unless it's to gain some future advantage

Just do the math, and watch. It's not a "conspiracy theory" - grow up, that's just silly. Actually READ my post before answering, and try understand it. Just DO THE MATH, pretend you own the business, and ask yourself what would you do. Companies can and frequently DO leave massive investments under-used if it is not more profitable to make use of them. You might think this is shocking and counterintuitive, but one of the FIRST rules you learn in business is don't chase good money after bad - i.e. never let a sunk cost decide future decisions. Examples: After the Dot-com bubble, a massive over-investment in cable led to many companies leaving massive under-ocean fiber cables in the developed world simply lying unused, waiting for demand to pick up again. Crack open a history book. See, an under-ocean cable has a high capex cost, but a very low comparative maintenance cost. Another example: US banks are sitting on foreclosed stock of approximately 7 million homes that they DO NOT WANT to trickle onto the market, because there is already abundant oversupply and dropping prices, and THE MATH shows that if prices fall much further, too many more homeowners will be left in greater negative equity and simply stop paying their monthlies (in the US you can do that), leading to further liquidity problems for the banks --- therefore they sit on repo'd stock instead of selling it. This is not "conspiracy theories", what silliness, it's just plain math.

Every single thing I pointed out in my post is verifiable FACT. So instead of making ad hominem attacks, you could try disprove my actual facts and argument.


What is the service level agreement on EASSY as compared to Seacom?

This is a circular argument! It doesn't even make sense. The 'service level agreement' is set by those very companies who own the cable - the investors - MTN, Vodacom, Telkom. It is up to them to come up with the conditions - the service level agreement didn't fall out the sky. The fact that you make such an argument proves you haven't even read my post properly, and don't understand it. Perhaps you should first look up words like "revenue", and understand what I wrote, before making counterarguments that don't even make sense. If you don't understand my post, sorry, but don't assume it's because it doesn't make sense.

Funny thing is, you are the one who originally claimed to know the answer, yet you haven't backed it up with any facts, and yet your own original answers actually perfectly line up with what I was saying. The fact that you gave such extremely short answers though is because you know you don't know the actual answer.
 
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Ok fantastic... Everything has to do with cost... My question was... WHO is using this cable? That's the only answer I'm looking for...

MTN / www.fnbconnect.co.za @ 12.38 / GB (Bundle 50GB)


fnb-mtn.jpg


Tracing route to google.com [74.125.230.147] over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 5 ms 5 ms 5 ms 41.183.26.1
3 30 ms 30 ms 32 ms 41.183.132.6
4 27 ms 28 ms 27 ms 41.183.132.68
5 30 ms 31 ms 31 ms 41.183.132.82
6 51 ms 28 ms 45 ms ge0-2sub110.gw10.jnb6.za.mtnbusiness.net [196.31.44.185]
7 236 ms 236 ms 235 ms ls-pr-1.uk--ls-cr-2.uk-a.mtn.net [209.212.111.201]
8 227 ms 226 ms 227 ms 195.66.224.125
9 270 ms 269 ms 269 ms 64.233.175.27
10 274 ms 229 ms 231 ms 209.85.251.202
11 237 ms 229 ms 229 ms 74.125.230.147

Trace complete.

http://www.mtn.com/media/overviewdetail.aspx?pk=401
 
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Oh please, it's not "tinfoil hat" stuff - it's far, far simpler than that: It's just plain business. It's much simpler than you think:

- Examine the costs and see what course of action leads to the highest profits
- Assume that a company will never do something that causes it to lose more money, unless it's to gain some future advantage

Just do the math, and watch. It's not a "conspiracy theory" - grow up, that's just silly. Just DO THE MATH, pretend you own the business, and ask yourself what would you do. Companies can and frequently DO leave massive investments under-used if it is not more profitable to make use of them. Examples: After the Dot-com bubble, a massive over-investment in cable led to many companies leaving massive under-ocean fiber cables in the developed world simply lying unused, waiting for demand to pick up again. Crack open a history book. See, an under-ocean cable has a high capex cost, but a very low comparative maintenance cost. Another example: US banks are sitting on foreclosed stock of approximately 7 million homes that they DO NOT WANT to trickle onto the market, because there is already abundant oversupply and dropping prices, and THE MATH shows that if prices fall much further, too many more homeowners will be left in greater negative equity and simply stop paying their monthlies (in the US you can do that), leading to further liquidity problems for the banks --- therefore they sit on repo'd stock instead of selling it. This is not "conspiracy theories", what silliness, it's just plain math.

Every single thing I pointed out in my post is verifiable FACT. So instead of making ad hominem attacks, you could try disprove my actual facts and argument.

This is a circular argument! It doesn't even make sense. The 'service level agreement' is set by those very companies who own the cable - the investors - MTN, Vodacom, Telkom. It is up to them to come up with the conditions - the service level agreement didn't fall out the sky. The fact that you make such an argument proves you haven't even read my post properly, and don't understand it. Perhaps you should first look up words like "revenue", and understand what I wrote, before making counterarguments that don't even make sense. If you don't understand my post, sorry, but don't assume it's because it doesn't make sense.

Much of your argument is based on the incorrect assumption that MTN, Neotel, Vodacom and Telkom own EASSY. WIOCC is the major shareholder in EASSY, not the 4 South African operators.

If it is indeed a cartel, then why have they not been hauled before the Competition Commission?
 
glad i'm not with MWEB anymore. changed a while back to OPENWEB due to MWEBS telkom like mannerism.Yeah still downloading, surfing did'nt even know seacom was down
 
Much of your argument is based on the incorrect assumption that MTN, Neotel, Vodacom and Telkom own EASSY. WIOCC is the major shareholder in EASSY, not the 4 South African operators.

Lol ... and who owns WIOCC? It's a consortium that includes .. uhrm ... wait for it ... MTN, Neotel, Vodacom, Telkom:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/pr...e-launched-capacity-almost-trebled-2010-08-05

The others are regional operators elsewhere in Africa and therefore have nothing and no say in what prices are offered in South African markets - that is how these cables work - the investors from each region set the terms in their own regions.

If it is indeed a cartel, then why have they not been hauled before the Competition Commission?

Double-lol. Oh yeah, the Competition Commission, they're so effective. They can only "haul" companies when they have clear-cut proof of price-fixing - the vast majority of price-fixing, they do not, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And I've clearly been in this industry a bit longer than you, because I can remember when the CC was in fact investigating Vodacom and MTN etc. for price-fixing, and they even had evidence, but couldn't use the evidence for some technicality.
 
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Lol ... and who owns WIOCC? It's a consortium that includes .. uhrm ... wait for it ... MTN, Neotel, Vodacom, Telkom:

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/pr...e-launched-capacity-almost-trebled-2010-08-05

The others are regional operators elsewhere in Africa and therefore have nothing and no say in what prices are offered in South African markets - that is how these cables work - the investors from each region set the terms in their own regions.

Double-lol.

Wrong again. WIOCC is not owned or part owned by any SA company. http://www.eassy.org/ownership.html

Do your homework.
 
Wrong again. WIOCC is not owned or part owned by any SA company. http://www.eassy.org/ownership.html

Do your homework.

WTF!? Your own link proves your own statement wrong, and me right!

"MTN International Group
...
SPV2 (Vodacom/Telkom SA)
...
Neotel, South Africa "

Do my homework? Those are the exact same companies mentioned in the Engineering News source I already posted! ??? Your arguments are now becoming bizarre. Again, I suggest you re-read my original post and try understand it first.

Or are you just trolling me? (Lightbulb moment - you are indeed just trolling, now it makes sense.)
 
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Here I link tihs yet again:
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/pr...e-launched-capacity-almost-trebled-2010-08-05

And yet, thanks for helping my argument. Because, contrary to your false claim, there ARE South African operators on that very list you posted: MTN and Neotel. And, and this is the funniest part of your post, the fact that there are fewer South African companies on that list actually BOLSTERS my argument. Seriously - read my argument, slowly, understand it, digest it, and you'll see that you have actually literally just strengthened my argument ten-fold. Thanks! (Which proves to me, yet again, that you actually don't understand what I wrote.)

Where did I say that there are NO SA operators? Anyway, rather start a new thread to continue as this is off topic here.


/and I know exactly what you wrote.
 
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Where did I say that there are NO SA operators? Anyway, rather start a new thread to continue as this is off topic here.

You wrote, and I quote: "Wrong again. WIOCC is not owned or part owned by any SA company" ... come on MickeyD, anyone can go two posts up and confirm you said this, unless you go edit it out now. Your arguments are increasingly bizarre, and you contradict yourself directly from post to post and even within a post. Either you're losing it, or you're trolling, but either way, you clearly did not understand my original argument, nor have you at any step even remotely managed to refute it in any way whatsoever, in fact you've helped strengthen it.
 
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WTF!? Your own link proves your own statement wrong, and me right!

"MTN International Group
...
SPV2 (Vodacom/Telkom SA)
...
Neotel, South Africa "

Do my homework? Those are the exact same companies mentioned in the Engineering News source I already posted! ??? Your arguments are now becoming bizarre. Again, I suggest you re-read my original post and try understand it first.

Or are you just trolling me? (Lightbulb moment - you are indeed just trolling, now it makes sense.)

What part of this do you not understand?
WIOCC is the largest shareholder in EASSy. It is jointly funded by a number of Development Financial Institutions and the following African telecoms operators:

Botswana Telecommunications Corporation
Dalkom Somalia
Djibouti Telecom
Gilat Satcom Nigeria Limited
Government of Seychelles
Lesotho Telecommunications Authority
Libyan Post, Telecom & IT Company
Onatel Burundi
Telkom Kenya Orange
Telecommunication De Mozambique
TelOne Zimbabwe
U-COM Burundi
Uganda Telecom
Zantel
 
http://www.eassy.org/ownership.html

"EASSy Ownership
EASSy is owned and operated by a group of 16 African (92%) and international (8%) shareholders - all telecommunications operators and service providers. The EASSy consortium consists of the following members:

WIOCC
MTN International Group
Sudatel, Sudan
SPV2 (Vodacom/Telkom SA)
Telma, Madagascar
Neotel, South Africa
..."


------------

http://www.jsltimes.com/eassy-cable-open-business

"Investors include MTN, Neotel, Telkom, Vodacom"

------------

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/pr...e-launched-capacity-almost-trebled-2010-08-05

"Dr Angus Hay, the chief technology officer of Neotel – one of the consortium of investors in the cable"
"EASSy chairperson Trevor Martins, who represents another South African investor, MTN"
"Vodacom and Telkom were also part of the investment consortium."

Heck, MTN SA even chair the board.
 
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http://www.eassy.org/ownership.html

"EASSy Ownership
EASSy is owned and operated by a group of 16 African (92%) and international (8%) shareholders - all telecommunications operators and service providers. The EASSy consortium consists of the following members:

WIOCC
MTN International Group
Sudatel, Sudan
SPV2 (Vodacom/Telkom SA)
Telma, Madagascar
Neotel, South Africa
..."


------------

http://www.jsltimes.com/eassy-cable-open-business

"Investors include MTN, Neotel, Telkom, Vodacom"

------------

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/pr...e-launched-capacity-almost-trebled-2010-08-05

"Dr Angus Hay, the chief technology officer of Neotel – one of the consortium of investors in the cable"
"EASSy chairperson Trevor Martins, who represents another South African investor, MTN"
"Vodacom and Telkom were also part of the investment consortium."

Heck, MTN SA even chair the board.

It seems that you have problems understanding. Let me try and explain:

Eassy is owned by a few entities. The major owner is WIOCC. None of the SA companies are part of WIOCC. They are direct owners in Eassy, not via WIOCC, which is the MAJOR shareholder.

From this it means that the SA companies are minor shareholders in Eassy.
 
I was referring to the EASSy cable...
In a Seacom thread. OK....

To answer the question though, its not clear who uses EASSY b/w until the ISPs in question announces it (NDAs etc). That funky list Tick has...those are the core investors, but it is by no means a complete list of the users of the cable. I know for example that WebAfrica is busy testing EASSY b/w. MWeb probably is too (Guess).

Prices are being kept artificially high by the 'big mafia boys'.
Sure. It has nothing to do with these cables though. International b/w prices have fallen like a rock and there is lots of capacity. The reason why mobile companies are charging such rates is much simpler: Because they can.

they are purposely pricing services too high for the ISPs in order to keep them from taking advantage of this cable
lol. Quite the opposite. Prices for intl b/w crashed after Seacom, so the cable consortium were forced to charge much less then they had anticipated. You can keep prices high if you've got a monopoly or price fixing. Neither of which is the case with the cables. Else prices would not have dropped like that.

The pricing issue is on-shore & has nothing to do with the cables. Telkom (monopoly) for fixed line, and MTN/Vodacom is best described as Conscious Parallelism.

Although no one in the know will admit to that on this forum ;-)
lol. You must be new here. The whole mobile pricing thing has been discussed to death already. Everyone knows & agrees its over-priced.
 
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