Second-hand sweet spot?

[SauRoNZA]

Not to mention that a high mileage car that is in good working order has already proven it's test of time and will probably keep potting for another 100 000km without a drama.

Whereas on the flipside the 60 000km car you think is the best deal ever could drop a clutch or entire gearbox within 10 000km of you buying it....you just can't know these things.

If a car looks like ass in general...chances are the mechanical bits aren't doing much better.

 

[vaultedskies]

That is the logic behind it, or as PostmanPot calls it, the low mileage myth. However the sweet spot is finding a car with low enough mileage. Case in point, I don't think it will cost significantly more to run a 2006 Mercedes C180K from 140,000km to 240,000km than it would a 2007 Astra 1.8 from 60,000km to 160,000km. The difference is that in the time you do that you are driving a much nicer car, and 140,000km is low enough for the Merc, as is 60,000km on the Astra.

understood, thanks for explaining!

 

[PostmanPot]

but presumably maintenance costs on average would be higher for the older, fancier, higher mileage car than the newer, more basic, lower mileage car?

Generally speaking yes, unless you had a crap driver who didn't love their newer, basic, low mileage car.

The question though is how much more for a luxury car? When I bought my first Audi, I did my research. Servicing and parts costs were on par with Polos and Golfs/Jettas, so it was a no brainer going Audi over VW, because they're essentially the same cars with more bells and whistles for cheaper. Fantastic second hand buyer cars.

Something that has hit 100,000km and just gone out of plan is the safest bet, any teething issues are no more, and the first owner has claimed anything possible from maintenance plan.

Buying lower mileage, out of plan cars, is a much bigger risk. For example, buying a 5 year old car out of plan with 60,000km. That's risky, because there were potentially 40,000 more km where anything that broke could have been claimed for.

That is the low mileage myth.

 

[vaultedskies]

Generally speaking yes, unless you had a crap driver who didn't love their newer, basic, low mileage car.

The question though is how much more for a luxury car? When I bought my first Audi, I did my research. Servicing and parts costs were on par with Polos and Golfs/Jettas, so it was a no brainer going Audi over VW, because they're essentially the same cars with more bells and whistles for cheaper. Fantastic second hand buyer cars.

Something that has hit 100,000km and just gone out of plan is the safest bet, any teething issues are no more, and the first owner has claimed anything possible from maintenance plan.

Buying lower mileage, out of plan cars, is a much bigger risk. For example, buying a 5 year old car out of plan with 60,000km. That's risky, because there were potentially 40,000 more km where anything that broke could have been claimed for.

That is the low mileage myth.

awesome, thanks for the explanation.

on a side note, the Samsung plasma TV you recommended in 2011 is still going strong, so thanks for that as well

 

[PostmanPot]

awesome, thanks for the explanation.

on a side note, the Samsung plasma TV you recommended in 2011 is still going strong, so thanks for that as well

Pleased to hear. Enjoy it while it lasts, next time you'll only have LCD (unless you can afford OLED).

 

[ahoudet]

Nope, you've got it wrong.

French cars are very HIGHLY engineered.

The only reason we have a problem with French cars in SA, is because of the support network not always being what it should be.

In the good old days the Peugeot 404 and 504 were the Rep car of choice and if you go through Africa, Peugeot is still the car of choice.

It has absolutely nothing to do with under engineering.

If Peugeot /Citroen/Renault had a similar supply and support chain, to say VW or Mercedes, they would be selling like hot cakes. In Europe, they are recognised as top rate cars, and sell alongside VW, for example, without any hassles.

I agree that I wouldn't have touched one about 10 years back, but there has been a massive transformation in SA, since then - it is simply because people pig headedly refuse to actually give them a chance any more, that they don't sell well here.

This. Sold a Megane to an employee when it hit 300 000km and she's still running beautifully

 

[Colin62]

This. Sold a Megane to an employee when it hit 300 000km and she's still running beautifully

Yes, but how's the car doing?

 

[Rouxenator]

Yes, but how's the car doing?

 

[vaultedskies]

Yes, but how's the car doing?

 

[PostmanPot]

 

[me_]

Something that has hit 100,000km and just gone out of plan is the safest bet, any teething issues are no more, and the first owner has claimed anything possible from maintenance plan.

Buying lower mileage, out of plan cars, is a much bigger risk. For example, buying a 5 year old car out of plan with 60,000km. That's risky, because there were potentially 40,000 more km where anything that broke could have been claimed for.

That is the low mileage myth.

I don't buy that. The manufacturers will gladly extend years in a motor plan (and it doesn't cost much to do it), yet extending kms is extremely expensive. This is because the manufacturers know that the cost of maintenance or a large problem increases after 100,000kms.
I ran a previous car of mine out of motor plan and the costs escalated. There was a very major service at 120,000kms that cost a small fortune so I figured I would hold onto the car a bit longer to recoup that cost only then it seemed like the car started falling apart between 140,000kms and 150,000kms.

That said, I am often skeptical of cars with very low mileages. I always have to wonder why they weren't driven - was it in a major accident, was there some major fault that took a long time to repair or was it perhaps used for short trips only.

 

[PostmanPot]

I don't buy that. The manufacturers will gladly extend years in a motor plan (and it doesn't cost much to do it), yet extending kms is extremely expensive. This is because the manufacturers know that the cost of maintenance or a large problem increases after 100,000kms.
I ran a previous car of mine out of motor plan and the costs escalated. There was a very major service at 120,000kms that cost a small fortune so I figured I would hold onto the car a bit longer to recoup that cost only then it seemed like the car started falling apart between 140,000kms and 150,000kms.

That said, I am often skeptical of cars with very low mileages. I always have to wonder why they weren't driven - was it in a major accident, was there some major fault that took a long time to repair or was it perhaps used for short trips only.

120,000km is when some people/brands have clutches, cam belts, water pumps, etc. replaced. This would be part of a major service yes. But the cost would be half at a mechanic/specialist, than that of a dealer.

Even cheaper if you supply the parts and only have the mechanic fit them.

There are many, many variables at play.

Manufacturers and dealers tend to make people scared about high mileage, in order to sell more new cars. 100,000km, 150,000km, are hardly "high mileage" at all.

Yet most people believe 100,000km is high mileage.

 

[me_]

120,000km is when some people/brands have clutches, cam belts, water pumps, etc. replaced. This would be part of a major service yes. But the cost would be half at a mechanic/specialist, than that of a dealer.

Even cheaper if you supply the parts and only have the mechanic fit them.

There are many, many variables at play.

Manufacturers and dealers tend to make people scared about high mileage, in order to sell more new cars. 100,000km, 150,000km, are hardly "high mileage" at all.

Yet most people believe 100,000km is high mileage.

I've never used a dealer outside of motor plan.
100,000kms is not much for a car. My first couple of cars were over 150,000kms when I bought them, but modern cars are getting very complicated and a number of the parts can only be purchased from the manufacturer.
I had the variable valve timing system fail. This was only available from the manufacturer at the reasonable price of R40,000.
Another guy I know had an electronic fault that caused an issue with his computer. Could only get the part from the manufacturer - R35,000.
These are just parts...
When you have a motor plan, you get a statement with what you would have paid if you weren't on motor plan. If you add up all these statements, they will probably come up to less than 1 big ticket item.
I therefore disagree with the notion that a car over 100,000kms has had all the issues ironed out. Besides for when the car is being run in, the mileage below 100,000 is the cheapest to maintain. That's why the manufacturers offer motor plans to this point.

 

[PostmanPot]

I've never used a dealer outside of motor plan.
100,000kms is not much for a car. My first couple of cars were over 150,000kms when I bought them, but modern cars are getting very complicated and a number of the parts can only be purchased from the manufacturer.
I had the variable valve timing system fail. This was only available from the manufacturer at the reasonable price of R40,000.
Another guy I know had an electronic fault that caused an issue with his computer. Could only get the part from the manufacturer - R35,000.
These are just parts...
When you have a motor plan, you get a statement with what you would have paid if you weren't on motor plan. If you add up all these statements, they will probably come up to less than 1 big ticket item.
I therefore disagree with the notion that a car over 100,000kms has had all the issues ironed out. Besides for when the car is being run in, the mileage below 100,000 is the cheapest to maintain. That's why the manufacturers offer motor plans to this point.

VVT, as in Toyota? Japanese then?

Yes, when one buys a second hand car, they should get the full service history, and print out of all claims against the motor plan to spot any underlying issues. There are many more factors when it comes to second hand buying. What you've witnessed in this thread, and quoted, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Dealers/manufacturers also do that to perpetuate the low mileage myth, and make people scared of cars over 100,000km. If all goes well - which is does, most of the time - there would be maybe R20,000 in maintenance on major parts - clutch, cam, waterpump, etc. - for the next 100,000km up till 200,000km.

When buying second hand, we do everything it takes to make sure we're not getting a lemon. If we don't get a lemon - which we won't, most of the time - it is 100% true that a car with 100,000km and just out of plan, is the safest bet.

Your example only makes us aware that lemons do exist. It is unfortunate that you got one.

Of course there is always some risk going second hand, minimal if you ask me, if the homework is done.

 

[Jet-Fighter7700]

so now the million rand question;

what time is the best to get rid of a car? when does it become too expensive to keep on the road?
and when is the best time to recoup your investment,

In my case I brought my little kia at 87000KM and its now sitting at 103000KM next service for me is at 105000KM
going ok, so far, nothing big needed replacing, except unpimping it

but Im not sure when things like cam belt/chain need changing, fuel filter, witch is in-tank in my case,

what do you guys recommend? recently had a guard fitted over the cambelt, was supposed to be there; but for some reason wasnt;
when they were working I asked to check the accessory belt, looked in good condition to me, but Im no mechanic.......

 

[chickenbeef]

but Im not sure when things like cam belt/chain need changing, fuel filter, witch is in-tank in my case,

The service book will give you that information. Read the pages after your last service

 

[chickenbeef]

VVT, as in Toyota? Japanese then?

VVT technology is used by a number of manufacturers (Germans included).

 

[SauRoNZA]

so now the million rand question;

what time is the best to get rid of a car? when does it become too expensive to keep on the road?
and when is the best time to recoup your investment,

In my case I brought my little kia at 87000KM and its now sitting at 103000KM next service for me is at 105000KM
going ok, so far, nothing big needed replacing, except unpimping it

but Im not sure when things like cam belt/chain need changing, fuel filter, witch is in-tank in my case,

what do you guys recommend? recently had a guard fitted over the cambelt, was supposed to be there; but for some reason wasnt;
when they were working I asked to check the accessory belt, looked in good condition to me, but Im no mechanic.......

When it costs you more money to fix than an installment on a new car would cost you over the given period.


This is where I never understand the logic when someone tells me "this car is starting to cost me money...I need to sell it now". Then I look at the invoice and it's R3500 or whatever for a major service. Two months later they are driving a brand new thing that costs them R4500-R5500 PER MONTH.


Same for those idiots who want to buy new cars "to save fuel".

 

[PostmanPot]

VVT technology is used by a number of manufacturers (Germans included).

Yes I know.

 

[TehStranger]

VVT technology is used by a number of manufacturers (Germans included).

+1, a comprehensive list includes:

AVCS (Subaru)
AVLS (Subaru)
CPS (Proton, Volvo)
CVTCS (Nissan, Infiniti)
CVVT (Alfa Romeo, Citroën, Geely, Hyundai, Iran Khodro, Kia, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo)
DCVCP - dual continuous variable cam phasing (General Motors)
DVVT (Daihatsu)
MIVEC (Mitsubishi)
N-VCT (Nissan)
S-VT (Mazda)
VANOS (BMW)
VarioCam (Porsche)
VCT (Ford, Yamaha)
i-VTEC (Honda, Acura)
VVC (MG Rover)
VVL (Nissan)
Valvelift (Audi)
VVEL (Nissan, Infiniti)
VVT (Chrysler, General Motors, Proton, Suzuki, Volkswagen Group)
VVT-i (Toyota, Lexus)
VTVT (Hyundai. Kia)

Saws

Now on to OP's questions (pardon me but I haven't read the thread yet):

Do you just go for the lowest mileage in your price range and preferred brand?

No. Mileage plays an important role, but it's not the be and end all. I'd rather trade higher mileage for better overall vehicle condition, especialyl if I can see the previous owner was merticulous.

Do you try and get something with a few years left on the warranty and/or service plan?

Depends on what I buy. If it's a Corolla or a Civic I'm not phased by it being out of plan. If it were something like a BMW M3 or Audi RS4 then I'd try to get some plan left (since things can go wrong, and when they go wrong they go wrong it can be costly).

Do you buy an older, better spec/class car with high mileage rather than a newer, lower spec/class car with low mileage (or vice versa)?

Yes, older, better model/spec wins every time. More bang for your buck, less depreciation hit, slightly higher maintenance/risk of something going wrong. a calculated risk.

Is there a certain mileage/age cut-off point that you just don't buy?

The short answer is no, good deals work across the range. The long answer is I'd have to take each car on a case by case basis.