Settle ABSA bond or keep savings in UK ?

Frankie

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I can comfortably settle my ABSA bond using part of my savings currently in my UK account - this choice is complicated with my decision swaying heavily towards packing up and leaving SA.
I was thinking of selling my property in 2010 thinking that we will have a good idea at that time if the ANC was still hell-bent on creating a Zim 2.0, and if so I'd be looking at moving the money out of SA.

Although the interest earned in the UK is very low, the gains in SA may be negated by the Rand depreciating.

What would you do?
 
But after that initial view my advice would be settle the bond... the interest you are paying on your bond is a definite so you would be getting a "guaranteed return" by saving on interest paid. If you interest on your bond is high this argument would hold even more so.

You talk about the rand depreciating but by the same token inflation is heading up (yes we may have reached the peak but it is still high) so your property value should always grow even if it does slow.

Now even if you made no more money on your property than you would have now you would still be saving on the interest. Counter this with the pathetic interest you are in all likelihood earning in the UK and it makes the bond option even more attractive.
 
I would not ask such advice on a public forum exactly because you'd end up getting bad advice such as posted above.

Bringing money into the country is not a good idea due to the tax you'll end up paying on it. If you are serious about leaving the country, leave your money where it is.

Just to clear some things up:

"You talk about the rand depreciating but by the same token inflation is heading up (yes we may have reached the peak but it is still high) so your property value should always grow even if it does slow. " That is the most awful piece of **** spewing I've seen on this forum yet. Inflation is not a measure of how property prices are going to increase. Property prices are driven by forces that are largely inflation independent. Please do not offer advice if you do not know what you're talking about.
 
I can comfortably settle my ABSA bond using part of my savings currently in my UK account - this choice is complicated with my decision swaying heavily towards packing up and leaving SA.
I was thinking of selling my property in 2010 thinking that we will have a good idea at that time if the ANC was still hell-bent on creating a Zim 2.0, and if so I'd be looking at moving the money out of SA.

Although the interest earned in the UK is very low, the gains in SA may be negated by the Rand depreciating.

What would you do?

Leave it in the UK.
The currency is taking quite the dive today. It's way safer in the UK.
I've got money in the USA, in equities of all things, and I'm leaving as is.
 
I would not ask such advice on a public forum exactly because you'd end up getting bad advice such as posted above.

Bringing money into the country is not a good idea due to the tax you'll end up paying on it. If you are serious about leaving the country, leave your money where it is.

Just to clear some things up:

"You talk about the rand depreciating but by the same token inflation is heading up (yes we may have reached the peak but it is still high) so your property value should always grow even if it does slow. " That is the most awful piece of **** spewing I've seen on this forum yet. Inflation is not a measure of how property prices are going to increase. Property prices are driven by forces that are largely inflation independent. Please do not offer advice if you do not know what you're talking about.

What tax is paid on money being brought into the country? I have spoken to a few people and even some monkey at SARS, but have not got a straight answer on this yet.

I agree partly with LancelotSA, you seem to want a easy answer, the truth is you have to take a chance somewhere and either send the money back, cover the bond and save on interest, or if you feel the way you do about SA, leave the money in the UK. But the rand hitting R9.30 to the dollar and over R16 to the pound, it might also be a good idea to consider that the rand might strengthen again, and you could of made a few thousand more by transferring now instead of a few months or year from now!
 
I would not ask such advice on a public forum exactly because you'd end up getting bad advice such as posted above.

Bringing money into the country is not a good idea due to the tax you'll end up paying on it. If you are serious about leaving the country, leave your money where it is.

Just to clear some things up:

"You talk about the rand depreciating but by the same token inflation is heading up (yes we may have reached the peak but it is still high) so your property value should always grow even if it does slow. " That is the most awful piece of **** spewing I've seen on this forum yet. Inflation is not a measure of how property prices are going to increase. Property prices are driven by forces that are largely inflation independent. Please do not offer advice if you do not know what you're talking about.

Monty would you like to sit around a table to argue some points? Do you think inflation is a word that can only be used in one context. Have you ever heard it used in the context of "house price inflation"? Obviously not!!

Another thing I do not for one minute profess to be a reserve bank expert but perhaps take a read of this page :

https://www.fnb.co.za/personal/findsolutions/homecomers/taxFaq.html

You have not asked any questions about where this money came from but immediately shot down my advice!
 
Monty would you like to sit around a table to argue some points? Do you think inflation is a word that can only be used in one context. Have you ever heard it used in the context of "house price inflation"? Obviously not!!

Another thing I do not for one minute profess to be a reserve bank expert but perhaps take a read of this page :

https://www.fnb.co.za/personal/findsolutions/homecomers/taxFaq.html

You have not asked any questions about where this money came from but immediately shot down my advice!

Interesting link, Thanks
 
What tax is paid on money being brought into the country? I have spoken to a few people and even some monkey at SARS, but have not got a straight answer on this yet.

I agree partly with LancelotSA, you seem to want a easy answer, the truth is you have to take a chance somewhere and either send the money back, cover the bond and save on interest, or if you feel the way you do about SA, leave the money in the UK. But the rand hitting R9.30 to the dollar and over R16 to the pound, it might also be a good idea to consider that the rand might strengthen again, and you could of made a few thousand more by transferring now instead of a few months or year from now!
There is no tax whatsoever when brining money into SA - I use easyexchange.co.uk and get the best exchange with no commission and sh1tty exchange rate I got previously when sending FX to SA.
It appears as an internet banking transfer on my SA account.

I think that it's worthwhile posting my query here, and expected I'd need to filter the feedback.

The current ÂŁ-Rand rate is what prompted me to consider this, but as mentioned, I may need to move it all back out if in 2010 I finally sell-up.
By then I would have saved a good deal in cash at the 12.5% ABSA rate.

Still undecided !!!
 
Taking money out of the country is not as easy. IIRC there are limits to how much you can take out in a year. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

If this is indeed the case and you want to leave the country in a year or two and your haouse has been paid off, you will obviously sell it and take the money with you. But if this amount is more than you can take out, your money will be stuck in SA until you can take out the rest.

So if you get these details and estimate how much money you might want to take out of the country when you leave, it might help youin your decision.
 
There is no tax whatsoever when brining money into SA - I use easyexchange.co.uk and get the best exchange with no commission and sh1tty exchange rate I got previously when sending FX to SA.
It appears as an internet banking transfer on my SA account.

I think that it's worthwhile posting my query here, and expected I'd need to filter the feedback.

The current ÂŁ-Rand rate is what prompted me to consider this, but as mentioned, I may need to move it all back out if in 2010 I finally sell-up.
By then I would have saved a good deal in cash at the 12.5% ABSA rate.

Still undecided !!!

I think you are wrong with regards to tax. Check the link LancelotSA posted above. As I understand it, it was changed and now it depends on where you reside. (As you live in SA now) I send money back to SA monthly, have had no problems, but it does not mean its not taxable! Its been quiet a bit over the last few months and the last thing I need is for SARS to want a piece of the pie. They can start snooping around and will query any and almost any amount of credit into your account.
 
Monty would you like to sit around a table to argue some points? Do you think inflation is a word that can only be used in one context. Have you ever heard it used in the context of "house price inflation"? Obviously not!!
Perhaps you should think before you spew any further nonsense. House Price Inflation is a measure of how house prices have increased - not how they will increase. I suggest you actually study economics before wanting to be a reserve bank expert. Further to my previous point, there is a property slow down where many experts have on numerous occassions remarked that the current property market is poised on a knife edge and that property prices are in fact expected to fall.
Another thing I do not for one minute profess to be a reserve bank expert but perhaps take a read of this page :

https://www.fnb.co.za/personal/findsolutions/homecomers/taxFaq.html

You have not asked any questions about where this money came from but immediately shot down my advice!
I shot down your advice because it's rubbish.

As for tax implications - it all boils down to whether Frankie is a South African citizen or not -and more importantly, where he/she resides - and as to whether he or she has actually declared their offshore monies. Any income into an account should be declared to SARS in any event.
 
Taking money out of the country is not as easy. IIRC there are limits to how much you can take out in a year. Maybe someone else can shed some light on this.

If this is indeed the case and you want to leave the country in a year or two and your haouse has been paid off, you will obviously sell it and take the money with you. But if this amount is more than you can take out, your money will be stuck in SA until you can take out the rest.

So if you get these details and estimate how much money you might want to take out of the country when you leave, it might help youin your decision.
As a South African citizen, you may take R2 Million over your life time.
 
I can comfortably settle my ABSA bond using part of my savings currently in my UK account - this choice is complicated with my decision swaying heavily towards packing up and leaving SA.
I was thinking of selling my property in 2010 thinking that we will have a good idea at that time if the ANC was still hell-bent on creating a Zim 2.0, and if so I'd be looking at moving the money out of SA.

Although the interest earned in the UK is very low, the gains in SA may be negated by the Rand depreciating.

What would you do?
If we ignore various Banks/Economies-collapsing scenarios and shifts in forex rates (unpredictable anyway) then you should settle the debt first. However, if you are serious about the 2010 move then Monty is right...having $$$ on the other side is going to help a lot.
 
I think you are wrong with regards to tax. Check the link LancelotSA posted above. As I understand it, it was changed and now it depends on where you reside. (As you live in SA now) I send money back to SA monthly, have had no problems, but it does not mean its not taxable! Its been quiet a bit over the last few months and the last thing I need is for SARS to want a piece of the pie. They can start snooping around and will query any and almost any amount of credit into your account.
All my income since Jan 1997 was earned abroad and since then I have sent money over to SA on a regular basis for expenses and on two occasions large amounts for property deals and have never paid tax on incoming money.
Each year I re-confirm with my local SARS office that I have not earned any income in SA and they respond that no tax return is required.
 
As a South African citizen, you may take R2 Million over your life time.
Yes, I am, and have already explored and decided on how to get the money out.

I contribute to a UK pension fund, but in SA all my investment is in property, which till now has worked out well.

Accumulated savings from earnings earned after 1 July 1997 can be retained abroad.
This applies to me.
 
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Perhaps you should think before you spew any further nonsense. House Price Inflation is a measure of how house prices have increased - not how they will increase. I suggest you actually study economics before wanting to be a reserve bank expert. Further to my previous point, there is a property slow down where many experts have on numerous occassions remarked that the current property market is poised on a knife edge and that property prices are in fact expected to fall.I shot down your advice because it's rubbish.

As for tax implications - it all boils down to whether Frankie is a South African citizen or not -and more importantly, where he/she resides - and as to whether he or she has actually declared their offshore monies. Any income into an account should be declared to SARS in any event.

Firstly, I think you will note that I quite clearly stated that I "do not for one minute profess to be a reserve bank expert". And for interests sake I did study economics and still try to keep my knowledge up to date.

However, all of this aside, once you stop bickering about the terminology I used you may come to realise that what I said is still valid. Call it what you want but houses should not actually lose value over time. Yes, the rate at which the value grows may slow as it has done in the current climate.

Now let's look at a scenario : The OP does not pay off his property and it does not grow in value (as you seem to have a problem with me insinuating that it may). He will still be paying it off as well as paying interest at 12.5% per annum guaranteed (at the moment, of course this will go down when interest rates start going down). So effectively he is becoming 12.5% worse off every year (to reiterate this is assuming his capital value on the house does not increase and not factoring in the real value of his worth ie ignoring inflation).

On the other hand he has this money sitting in a UK bank earning him what sort of interest? If it is anywhere near the 12.5% then fair enough.

Now we also seem to be ignoring the fact that he is swaying heavily towards leaving and has not made definite plans. If he were to stay here for 10 years would he not not be better off bringing that money in now while the rand is relatively weak (again we cannot predict if it will weaken further or strengthen but we do now where it stands currently) and settling that debt?

As regards bringing that money back you are adamant that he would be mad to do so because of the tax implications but in your infinite wisdom you have still failed to give an idea as to what these would be. I see you do now eventually, after some prompting make mention of the fact that a few more details will be needed to ascertain this but you failed to do so before attacking me. It could be inheritance, it could be drug money, it could be money that was declared during the amnesty... we don't know, yet you attack me.

As for your reference to experts predicting movements in the property market, many experts are also concerned about the well being of banks in the
US and UK at the moment but you failed to allude to that...




EDIT : And out of interest even if he were not to pay off the bond now, how will it be beneficial to him if your prediction of house prices falling comes true? He would still have a bond to settle when he leaves and even less equity in the propety as he has been paying interest for two years and very little capital. Did you actually think this through or just attack?
 
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Firstly, I think you will note that I quite clearly stated that I "do not for one minute profess to be a reserve bank expert". And for interests sake I did study economics and still try to keep my knowledge up to date.
Good for you.
However, all of this aside, once you stop bickering about the terminology I used you may come to realise that what I said is still valid.
Well, it's only valid when you use the correct terminology ;)
Call it what you want but houses should not actually lose value over time.
No they shouldn't, but that doesn't mean they won't. Housing bubbles burst, and when they do, people usually lose everything.
Yes, the rate at which the value grows may slow as it has done in the current climate.
Current rates of growth are comfortably negated by debt service costs, meaning in real terms, house values are depreciating in relation to the costs of keeping them. If the OP does settle, then it won't affect him, which I guess is what your long winded reply is all about. But remember, the OP is possibly leaving in a year and half's time. So, other factors also come into play - such as waiting for the house to be sold, possible CGT that will be payable, etc, etc.
Now let's look at a scenario : The OP does not pay off his property and it does not grow in value (as you seem to have a problem with me insinuating that it may). He will still be paying it off as well as paying interest at 12.5% per annum guaranteed (at the moment, of course this will go down when interest rates start going down). So effectively he is becoming 12.5% worse off every year (to reiterate this is assuming his capital value on the house does not increase and not factoring in the real value of his worth ie ignoring inflation).
Absolutely - but he may just be here for up to 2 more years.... In which case, given that there are various difficulties in taking money back out of the country and also limits on this, it probably won't be worth his while if he is not staying beyond 2010.
On the other hand he has this money sitting in a UK bank earning him what sort of interest? If it is anywhere near the 12.5% then fair enough.

Now we also seem to be ignoring the fact that he is swaying heavily towards leaving and has not made definite plans. If he were to stay here for 10 years would he not not be better off bringing that money in now while the rand is relatively weak (again we cannot predict if it will weaken further or strengthen but we do now where it stands currently) and settling that debt?
Where do you get 10 years from? 2010 is less than 2 years away...
As regards bringing that money back you are adamant that he would be mad to do so because of the tax implications but in your infinite wisdom you have still failed to give an idea as to what these would be.
Not bring money in - take it out. If he brings the money in, as a South African citizen and resident he is limited severely on how much he can take out again...
I see you do now eventually, after some prompting make mention of the fact that a few more details will be needed to ascertain this but you failed to do so before attacking me. It could be inheritance, it could be drug money, it could be money that was declared during the amnesty... we don't know, yet you attack me.
You offered very bad advice - and you still think it's good advice. The fact is if he sells his house in a year's time, then the benefit he will get from such a sale after early settlement will be negated by the tax implications and difficulties to get the money back out.
As for your reference to experts predicting movements in the property market, many experts are also concerned about the well being of banks in the
US and UK at the moment but you failed to allude to that...
Last time I checked the difficulties were global - including South Africa.
EDIT : And out of interest even if he were not to pay off the bond now, how will it be beneficial to him if your prediction of house prices falling comes true? He would still have a bond to settle when he leaves and even less equity in the propety as he has been paying interest for two years and very little capital. Did you actually think this through or just attack?
The less capital he needs to take out with him, the easier it is ;)
 
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Let me respond, although your tone does seem less attacking and less insulting of my knowledge than you were earlier....

If the OP does settle, then it won't affect him, which I guess is what your long winded reply is all about.

1. Thanks for the concession (it was veiled but seemed to be there) that my post does make sense to you to a small degree and I will not apologise for it being long winded as after the initial insults and attack it appeared necessary to get the concept through.

So, other factors also come into play - such as waiting for the house to be sold, possible CGT that will be payable, etc, etc.

2. I am making an assumption that this is the OPs primary residence based on what he has told us, so there will be no CGT implications.

3. The other factors that you say come into play are going to be in play whether he sells the place or not when/if leaving (ie waiting for the house to be sold) so not relevant to his decision.

Where do you get 10 years from? 2010 is less than 2 years away...

4. As regards your questioning of the 10 years I mentioned : I stated before that, that he was thinking of leaving... so things are not written in stone. So after already showing that it may be best even if he saved on interest over two years, I then went ahead and said that if he were not to leave and then spent 10 years paying off the house would that be in his best interests. I am fully aware that 2010 is two years off, in fact 1 year three months if you would like to be pedantic.

Not bring money in - take it out. If he brings the money in, as a South African citizen and resident he is limited severely on how much he can take out again...

5. You have now switched to taking money out after being exposed it seems as your original post referred specifically said : "Bringing money into the country is not a good idea due to the tax you'll end up paying on it." As stated I am not a reserve bank specialist but all these factors do need to be weighed up. It does, however, show that you cannot just dismiss what I recommended in fact attack and insult would be more valid words!


You offered very bad advice - and you still think it's good advice. The fact is if he sells his house in a year's time, then the benefit he will get from such a sale after early settlement will be negated by the tax implications and difficulties to get the money back out.

After this I have actually had enough of talking to you about this. You seem to want to come across as knowing it all but you have not once stated any facts. You have also now taken to changing things to suit your argument. Instead of two years we now have him selling in one year. Your entire argument also seems to be leaning towards him not getting a good price when he sells yet he will run into the exact same issue if he were to not settle now. He would then need to get a price to cover his bond... or end up having to bring some of that money across anyway to settle his shortfall.

I found this discussion pretty interesting on an expat forum and will nbe sure to check out the facts on this. You may do well to do the same yourself before making statements without knowing the facts :

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showthread.php?t=461133&page=2]

Or perhaps this answer on iafrica finance which shows the answer is not as easy as you seem to think :

http://mymoney.iafrica.com/finfitness/583460.htm

Or even better why don't we refer to the reserve bank legislation and in particular this section :

Capital transfers by private individuals (natural persons) resident in
South Africa

Income earned abroad and own capital introduced into the Republic on or
after 1 July 1997 may be retransferred abroad against documentary evidence
confirming the amounts involved. Sales proceeds of South African assets
received from non-residents and export proceeds are excluded from this
concession

I'll be sure to read up on that last bit some more myself....
 
Ok, King (?) I just check on the reserve bank website and it clearly says :

In the 1998/1999 Budget Speech additional exchange control liberalisations and relaxations were announced by the Minister of Finance.

....

Capital introduced in to the country after 1 July 1997 by resident private individuals (natural persons) may be repatriated at any future date.

Any further arguments you would like to put forward?



(OP obviously just confirm this ruling with whoever does these things before hand as I am under the impression that the correct procedures need to be followed ie it has to be noted with the relevant authorities that the funds were brought in so they can be taken out)
 
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