Should PicoPSU-powered PCs be earthed?

Drunkard #1

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The PicoPSU takes a 12V DC input, which is supplied by an external brick. Earthing protects from shock should a 230V live wire touch the chassis, but if a 12V live wire touched the chassis, well, meh. So earthing the box has no advantages. (Unless the brick fails catastrophically and puts 230V through the 12V side, in which case I'd know something was wrong by the stench of melted electronics)

On the other hand, this assumes that the earth line is clean. What if it isn't? Can I get interference over the earth line? Doesn't connecting an earth take away some of the isolation that an external brick provides? In short, could an earth connection have disadvantages?

Anyone with an opinion, or even better, experience?
 
Short answer, it's DC and DC current flows from positive to negative. Adding a ground wire would do nothing.

For all intents and purposes ground doesn't exist in a DC system. Touching the positive OR negative wire, no matter the voltage, would do absolutely nothing. Touch both at the same time and you *might* have a problem. Not at 12 volt however.
 
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Short answer, it's DC and DC current flows from positive to negative. Adding a ground wire would do nothing.

For all intents and purposes ground doesn't exist in a DC system. Touching the positive OR negative wire, no matter the voltage, would do absolutely nothing. Touch both at the same time and you *might* have a problem. Not at 12 volt however.

I've always understood that both AC neutral and DC neutral are kept as close to ground as possible, so 220V DC would give you a hell of a shock, just like 220V AC, even if you just touched live. Obviously 12V won't.

But I understand what you're saying; 12V isn't hazardous, so don't bother with an earth. Question is, could having an earth cause problems? I'm leaning towards removing the one that I installed.
 
As I understand it, having floating supplies inter connected could well cause ground loops, which in turn cause current to flow between systems. If everything is grounded to a common ground then these loops can't exist.
 
As I understand it, having floating supplies inter connected could well cause ground loops, which in turn cause current to flow between systems. If everything is grounded to a common ground then these loops can't exist.

So you're saying that if my TV and PC have independent ungrounded supplies, I might get current flow over something like my HDMI cable's screening? So you're in favour of earthing. Makes sense.

But, would earthing just the PC help? The PC is only connected to the network switch (unshielded CAT 5e) and the TV (HDMI). Neither is earthed. The keyboard and mouse are wireless, and the audio is optical. Doesn't everything need to be earthed to prevent ground loops?
 
So you're saying that if my TV and PC have independent ungrounded supplies, I might get current flow over something like my HDMI cable's screening? So you're in favour of earthing. Makes sense.

But, would earthing just the PC help? The PC is only connected to the network switch (unshielded CAT 5e) and the TV (HDMI). Neither is earthed. The keyboard and mouse are wireless, and the audio is optical. Doesn't everything need to be earthed to prevent ground loops?

Yes, everything would need to be grounded to the same ground. It should also drain static buildup from each device.
 
I didn't want to have to explain this because it is a lot of work, but here goes:

DC doesn't have a ground. It goes from positive to negative. And NO, regardless of voltage (even a million billion volts) will not shock you UNLESS you touch both positive and negative.

AC flows to earth. You'll notice that those distribution towers you see along the highways have 3 wires (for the 3 phases) and the no ground wires (they might have on top for lightning but they are much thinner and not used for anything other than lightning protection). So in an AC system your neutral is ground. The difference is ground is used to detect a problem and to get rid of noise in the electrical system that you don't want on your neutral. Our trip switches in our houses in SA has 2 types of trips, the first is a ground breaker which breaks the connection as soon as a high current is detected on your ground (remember ground = neutral, but it is there for safety and to filter out electrical noise, not to act as your neutral). The other kind of trip is a residual current device (RCD) which detects if your return path is the neutral (anything else is assumed to be ground and therefore dangerous). If your ground breaker trips, that means a high current passed through the ground wire and it cut it off for safety. If the actual trip switch trips that means current was being directed in a path other than your neutral wire (eg. a person).

That is AC in a nutshell and what the difference is there between ground & neutral. As I said before, a ground wire in an AC system is also usually used to get rid of noise (stray AC currents which means it's frequency is different or it is out of phase because of inductance). Noise on a neutral wire is not desirable because it will flow into anything plugged into that distribution before it is grounded.

A ground on a DC system is used because your DC system uses AC. For example an amplifier. An amplifier takes an AC signal then boosts it using DC. This will introduce noise, which is shunted to ground.

A ground loop is exactly as the name suggests. You have multiple ground points in a single system. So it creates a loop in which the noise moves. Ground loops you can easily identify in a car where it'll have a noise as soon as your engine is running. The reason you hear the noise only when the engine is running is because the electrical system is DC! Therefore it has no ground. But an alternator is AC with rectifier diodes and a floating voltage regulator, however it is imperfect so you have noise. If you have a ground loop the alternator noise can be heard on the sound system. That noise disappears as soon as the alternator stops turning.

A PC ideally needs 100% DC, eg. no noise, no stray AC (at any kind of frequency). So the SMPS filters it out. Therefore a ground wire is only needed if you have a very very low quality AC -> DC power supply.

The guys who design these things actually DO know what they are doing. They don't include a ground wire because they rightly know it does not make sense.

Your SMPS or power brick (which is a SMPS) DOES have a ground wire which it may or may not use to filter out the AC noise. But once it is DC you don't need a ground wire anymore.

Do you see ground wires after your PSU in a PC? No, because you don't need it, the noise has already been filtered out, you are working purely with DC and all the noise has long been filtered out (by capacitors).

My 2c :)
 
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I didn't want to have to explain this because it is a lot of work, but here goes:

DC doesn't have a ground. It goes from positive to negative. And NO, regardless of voltage (even a million billion volts) will not shock you UNLESS you touch both positive and negative.

AC flows to earth. You'll notice that those distribution towers you see along the highways have 3 wires (for the 3 phases) and the no ground wires (they might have on top for lightning but they are much thinner and not used for anything other than lightning protection). So in an AC system your neutral is ground. The difference is ground is used to detect a problem and to get rid of noise in the electrical system that you don't want on your neutral. Our trip switches in our houses in SA has 2 types of trips, the first is a ground breaker which breaks the connection as soon as a high current is detected on your ground (remember ground = neutral, but it is there for safety and to filter out electrical noise, not to act as your neutral). The other kind of trip is a residual current device (RCD) which detects if your return path is the neutral (anything else is assumed to be ground and therefore dangerous). If your ground breaker trips, that means a high current passed through the ground wire and it cut it off for safety. If the actual trip switch trips that means current was being directed in a path other than your neutral wire (eg. a person).

That is AC in a nutshell and what the difference is there between ground & neutral. As I said before, a ground wire in an AC system is also usually used to get rid of noise (stray AC currents which means it's frequency is different or it is out of phase because of inductance). Noise on a neutral wire is not desirable because it will flow into anything plugged into that distribution before it is grounded.

A ground on a DC system is used because your DC system uses AC. For example an amplifier. An amplifier takes an AC signal then boosts it using DC. This will introduce noise, which is shunted to ground.

A ground loop is exactly as the name suggests. You have multiple ground points in a single system. So it creates a loop in which the noise moves. Ground loops you can easily identify in a car where it'll have a noise as soon as your engine is running. The reason you hear the noise only when the engine is running is because the electrical system is DC! Therefore it has no ground. But an alternator is AC with rectifier diodes and a floating voltage regulator, however it is imperfect so you have noise. If you have a ground loop the alternator noise can be heard on the sound system. That noise disappears as soon as the alternator stops turning.

A PC ideally needs 100% DC, eg. no noise, no stray AC (at any kind of frequency). So the SMPS filters it out. Therefore a ground wire is only needed if you have a very very low quality AC -> DC power supply.

The guys who design these things actually DO know what they are doing. They don't include a ground wire because they rightly know it does not make sense.

Your SMPS or power brick (which is a SMPS) DOES have a ground wire which it may or may not use to filter out the AC noise. But once it is DC you don't need a ground wire anymore.

Do you see ground wires after your PSU in a PC? No, because you don't need it, the noise has already been filtered out, you are working purely with DC and all the noise has long been filtered out (by capacitors).

My 2c :)

No, no no. That is dangerously wrong. I'll get back to answering this later, but till then, don't touch any high voltage DC lines.
 
When I studied at the university I touched high voltage DC positives (48V DC in series x4). We used them to weld stuff (for fun).

Guess what happened when I touched the positive....

Wait for it....

Nothing.
 
I've recently built a PC powered with a regular 230W ATX PSU.
The PC is connected to an ungrounded outlet, in fact i've detected current leakage when touching the metal parts of the case with bare hands.
Will replacing the PSU with a picoPSU solve the problem of the electrified case?
 
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Will replacing the PSU with a picoPSU solve the problem of the electrified case?
Maybe, but it is not you shouls look for. Get proper (3 wire) power cord and connect it to the outlet with ground cocket. Don't bypass gound pin.
 
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