Shower Floor Repair - Help!

[Mannydefreitas]

Maybe check if your house structure insurance covers this sort of thing.

No chance...

 

[Mannydefreitas]

Thanks folks.

Whereabouts is the house?

 

[RandomRando]

So. Yesterday i sat down on the couch after dinner... then next thing i know it was 0730 the next morning. Lol.

See attached pictures of the plan @RedViking

house was built in 89.

Reno done in 95.

Original plan shows the ensuite bathroom in question. It has a toilet and shower and basin only, on original plans.

Amended plans show the bathroom was extended to include a bath as well, with the add on to the bedroom.

Not exactly sure how that translates to cavity creation though, absent another factor such as water leak.

Also not sure if that means the entire extension has this issue, or only up until the old original wall placement. Need to stick my head in the ground again and try gauge it with this plan knowledge fresh in my mind.

 

[myBBexpert]

Demolish house and rebuild

 

[RandomRando]

Right. So.

Had a contractor in to do a penetrometer test to determine if injection grouting is an avenue worth exploring. Needless to say, some pilot holes drilled around in different rooms only further increased my heart rate. The test directly below the shower floor reached a depth of 1.5m before the test movement slowed to increments of 10-20mm.

Im in discussions with an engineer now as well for a site visit and full report, but based on the follow ups and investigation thus far:

The ensuite bathroom floor has a cavity which extends into the walk in closet, as well as the guest bathroom (either side of the ensuite) where there is the most fill).
The fill beneath the floors of the original structure in the bedroom next to the master as well as in the kitchen are not compacted, but dont necessarily have cavities. The Engineer, prior to the site visit but based on the spam of pictures sent so far, does not suspect actual foundation issues at this point, only insufficient compacting of fill material, and recommends removing the floor, recompacting and piuring a new slab. I have requested a site visit (R1650) to determine more for a report.

Injection grouting (polymer based) is seemingly expensive @~R2250 a square meter, but needs to be injected "4 layers down", as well as the cavity itself. Im a bit confused by this, as the fill would be by volume, not by area, so like, how does one know when you have succeed with the process, for the entire floor? I would have thought it would work by volume and be a somewhat moving target depending on the density of the soil and the cavities within, similar to fracking, for example. Also, this method means no ground sheet... Attached the penetrometer test of the shower

I will be following up with a builder to determine the details of potentially demo'ing the floors (piece meal if possible) and understanding costs to compact and fix. The concern is the interior walls - if they are on the slab or go through it.

Having got to this point, my wife is spitting mad. The acid right now is enough to melt the floors, even though its not a joint mortgage. I knew there was work to do and it would take a number of years before getting really stuck in with big changes, but now with this issue delaying that substantially, she is really bitter. Don't get me wrong. Im also largely annoyed by this, but im staying level headed. I need to understand everything that may be on the table to consider.

Thus, my questions becomes the following:

1.) Is there any recourse here? Either we lose, or the seller loses, or the bank loses. Knowing my luck, itll be me. I saw the shower drain issue with the pre-inspection, but there was no way of knowing the floor was hollow, as i couldnt see beneath it, nor see evidence of major foundational issues.

2.) If there is recourse, who, how what? Go back to the agent / transfering attorney? Go to the bank? What does one do in these situations? We have already begun with some sort of work, such as pulling two carpets that couldn't be saved and gutting the rooms, major gardening works and tree felling, alarm installation and stripping the ensuite bathroom of course, before arriving at, "oh ****, we have a rather large problem here", and, "the money is now almost gone so we need to slow down to a crawl". So i would imagine at this point, it is too far down the line to "reverse" the sale (not that we want to tbh). Id imagine fighting the bank for recourse (LOL) to fix the issue is a nonstarter, thus it would be the previous owners who would ultimately, if we are successful, be out of pocket.(slim chance according to my logic, but i know **** all in this area). If im right, then im not sure if its worth exploring and going down this path?


Let me know your thoughts, please, folks.

 

[Rickster]

Who on earth put laminate floors like those in the bathroom.

I have no idea but it should be criminalized.

 

[Pho3nix]

Right. So.

Had a contractor in to do a penetrometer test to determine if injection grouting is an avenue worth exploring. Needless to say, some pilot holes drilled around in different rooms only further increased my heart rate. The test directly below the shower floor reached a depth of 1.5m before the test movement slowed to increments of 10-20mm.

Im in discussions with an engineer now as well for a site visit and full report, but based on the follow ups and investigation thus far:

The ensuite bathroom floor has a cavity which extends into the walk in closet, as well as the guest bathroom (either side of the ensuite) where there is the most fill).
The fill beneath the floors of the original structure in the bedroom next to the master as well as in the kitchen are not compacted, but dont necessarily have cavities. The Engineer, prior to the site visit but based on the spam of pictures sent so far, does not suspect actual foundation issues at this point, only insufficient compacting of fill material, and recommends removing the floor, recompacting and piuring a new slab. I have requested a site visit (R1650) to determine more for a report.

Injection grouting (polymer based) is seemingly expensive @~R2250 a square meter, but needs to be injected "4 layers down", as well as the cavity itself. Im a bit confused by this, as the fill would be by volume, not by area, so like, how does one know when you have succeed with the process, for the entire floor? I would have thought it would work by volume and be a somewhat moving target depending on the density of the soil and the cavities within, similar to fracking, for example. Also, this method means no ground sheet... Attached the penetrometer test of the shower

I will be following up with a builder to determine the details of potentially demo'ing the floors (piece meal if possible) and understanding costs to compact and fix. The concern is the interior walls - if they are on the slab or go through it.

Having got to this point, my wife is spitting mad. The acid right now is enough to melt the floors, even though its not a joint mortgage. I knew there was work to do and it would take a number of years before getting really stuck in with big changes, but now with this issue delaying that substantially, she is really bitter. Don't get me wrong. Im also largely annoyed by this, but im staying level headed. I need to understand everything that may be on the table to consider.

Thus, my questions becomes the following:

1.) Is there any recourse here? Either we lose, or the seller loses, or the bank loses. Knowing my luck, itll be me. I saw the shower drain issue with the pre-inspection, but there was no way of knowing the floor was hollow, as i couldnt see beneath it, nor see evidence of major foundational issues.

2.) If there is recourse, who, how what? Go back to the agent / transfering attorney? Go to the bank? What does one do in these situations? We have already begun with some sort of work, such as pulling two carpets that couldn't be saved and gutting the rooms, major gardening works and tree felling, alarm installation and stripping the ensuite bathroom of course, before arriving at, "oh ****, we have a rather large problem here", and, "the money is now almost gone so we need to slow down to a crawl". So i would imagine at this point, it is too far down the line to "reverse" the sale (not that we want to tbh). Id imagine fighting the bank for recourse (LOL) to fix the issue is a nonstarter, thus it would be the previous owners who would ultimately, if we are successful, be out of pocket.(slim chance according to my logic, but i know **** all in this area). If im right, then im not sure if its worth exploring and going down this path?


Let me know your thoughts, please, folks.

Which area are you in?

You can try chat to your transfer attorneys but most likely previous owners didn’t know this was an issue.

Sadly the underpinning is an expensive exercise that might won’t work 100%. Get the engineer in and ask him to recommend some options and companies he trusts. Make sure they get guarantee on work as well.

Then speak to your broker if you have one.

Then lastly your banker as you’ll probably need a painful loan.

 

[The Darkness]

Right. So.

Had a contractor in to do a penetrometer test to determine if injection grouting is an avenue worth exploring. Needless to say, some pilot holes drilled around in different rooms only further increased my heart rate. The test directly below the shower floor reached a depth of 1.5m before the test movement slowed to increments of 10-20mm.

Im in discussions with an engineer now as well for a site visit and full report, but based on the follow ups and investigation thus far:

The ensuite bathroom floor has a cavity which extends into the walk in closet, as well as the guest bathroom (either side of the ensuite) where there is the most fill).
The fill beneath the floors of the original structure in the bedroom next to the master as well as in the kitchen are not compacted, but dont necessarily have cavities. The Engineer, prior to the site visit but based on the spam of pictures sent so far, does not suspect actual foundation issues at this point, only insufficient compacting of fill material, and recommends removing the floor, recompacting and piuring a new slab. I have requested a site visit (R1650) to determine more for a report.

Injection grouting (polymer based) is seemingly expensive @~R2250 a square meter, but needs to be injected "4 layers down", as well as the cavity itself. Im a bit confused by this, as the fill would be by volume, not by area, so like, how does one know when you have succeed with the process, for the entire floor? I would have thought it would work by volume and be a somewhat moving target depending on the density of the soil and the cavities within, similar to fracking, for example. Also, this method means no ground sheet... Attached the penetrometer test of the shower

I will be following up with a builder to determine the details of potentially demo'ing the floors (piece meal if possible) and understanding costs to compact and fix. The concern is the interior walls - if they are on the slab or go through it.

Having got to this point, my wife is spitting mad. The acid right now is enough to melt the floors, even though its not a joint mortgage. I knew there was work to do and it would take a number of years before getting really stuck in with big changes, but now with this issue delaying that substantially, she is really bitter. Don't get me wrong. Im also largely annoyed by this, but im staying level headed. I need to understand everything that may be on the table to consider.

Thus, my questions becomes the following:

1.) Is there any recourse here? Either we lose, or the seller loses, or the bank loses. Knowing my luck, itll be me. I saw the shower drain issue with the pre-inspection, but there was no way of knowing the floor was hollow, as i couldnt see beneath it, nor see evidence of major foundational issues.

2.) If there is recourse, who, how what? Go back to the agent / transfering attorney? Go to the bank? What does one do in these situations? We have already begun with some sort of work, such as pulling two carpets that couldn't be saved and gutting the rooms, major gardening works and tree felling, alarm installation and stripping the ensuite bathroom of course, before arriving at, "oh ****, we have a rather large problem here", and, "the money is now almost gone so we need to slow down to a crawl". So i would imagine at this point, it is too far down the line to "reverse" the sale (not that we want to tbh). Id imagine fighting the bank for recourse (LOL) to fix the issue is a nonstarter, thus it would be the previous owners who would ultimately, if we are successful, be out of pocket.(slim chance according to my logic, but i know **** all in this area). If im right, then im not sure if its worth exploring and going down this path?


Let me know your thoughts, please, folks.

I can imagine how you feel. I've been in a similar situation, with a leaking shower too. I got lucky in that the seller had noted on the LOD that it would be repaired, however when they did I wasn't satisfied. In the end the entire shower was chopped and re-plumbed at a huge cost to the seller. I needed to get my attorney involved as the seller's lawyer was being difficult so assigned my lawyer a watching brief to ensure it was followed through on.

I suspect in your case the transfer attorney (acting in the interest of the seller) will question how the seller would have know about the extent of the damage. Perhaps with the right photographs of this situation before you ripped it up would be able to prove this latent damage? If I were you, I'd not reach out directly to anyone, especially the TA. Have a lawyer look at doing that, however you'd need to be able to prove that the seller knew of this defect. This whole process could end up in the R50k+ in legal fees and suffering though.

The bank won't have anything to offer or add. The bank sold you a loan, with a house's deed as surety. It might seem painful at first, but chopping it out, compacting and re-casting that floor might be the path of least pain in the long run.

Best of luck to you. This can be fixed.

 

[RedViking]

So. Yesterday i sat down on the couch after dinner... then next thing i know it was 0730 the next morning. Lol.

See attached pictures of the plan @RedViking

house was built in 89.

Reno done in 95.

Original plan shows the ensuite bathroom in question. It has a toilet and shower and basin only, on original plans.

Amended plans show the bathroom was extended to include a bath as well, with the add on to the bedroom.

Not exactly sure how that translates to cavity creation though, absent another factor such as water leak.

Also not sure if that means the entire extension has this issue, or only up until the old original wall placement. Need to stick my head in the ground again and try gauge it with this plan knowledge fresh in my mind.

Sorry I am not sure why I didn't get the notification of the tag. Only stumbled onto this post by accident.

 

[RedViking]

Right. So.

Had a contractor in to do a penetrometer test to determine if injection grouting is an avenue worth exploring. Needless to say, some pilot holes drilled around in different rooms only further increased my heart rate. The test directly below the shower floor reached a depth of 1.5m before the test movement slowed to increments of 10-20mm.

Im in discussions with an engineer now as well for a site visit and full report, but based on the follow ups and investigation thus far:

The ensuite bathroom floor has a cavity which extends into the walk in closet, as well as the guest bathroom (either side of the ensuite) where there is the most fill).
The fill beneath the floors of the original structure in the bedroom next to the master as well as in the kitchen are not compacted, but dont necessarily have cavities. The Engineer, prior to the site visit but based on the spam of pictures sent so far, does not suspect actual foundation issues at this point, only insufficient compacting of fill material, and recommends removing the floor, recompacting and piuring a new slab. I have requested a site visit (R1650) to determine more for a report.

Injection grouting (polymer based) is seemingly expensive @~R2250 a square meter, but needs to be injected "4 layers down", as well as the cavity itself. Im a bit confused by this, as the fill would be by volume, not by area, so like, how does one know when you have succeed with the process, for the entire floor? I would have thought it would work by volume and be a somewhat moving target depending on the density of the soil and the cavities within, similar to fracking, for example. Also, this method means no ground sheet... Attached the penetrometer test of the shower

I will be following up with a builder to determine the details of potentially demo'ing the floors (piece meal if possible) and understanding costs to compact and fix. The concern is the interior walls - if they are on the slab or go through it.

Having got to this point, my wife is spitting mad. The acid right now is enough to melt the floors, even though its not a joint mortgage. I knew there was work to do and it would take a number of years before getting really stuck in with big changes, but now with this issue delaying that substantially, she is really bitter. Don't get me wrong. Im also largely annoyed by this, but im staying level headed. I need to understand everything that may be on the table to consider.

Thus, my questions becomes the following:

1.) Is there any recourse here? Either we lose, or the seller loses, or the bank loses. Knowing my luck, itll be me. I saw the shower drain issue with the pre-inspection, but there was no way of knowing the floor was hollow, as i couldnt see beneath it, nor see evidence of major foundational issues.

2.) If there is recourse, who, how what? Go back to the agent / transfering attorney? Go to the bank? What does one do in these situations? We have already begun with some sort of work, such as pulling two carpets that couldn't be saved and gutting the rooms, major gardening works and tree felling, alarm installation and stripping the ensuite bathroom of course, before arriving at, "oh ****, we have a rather large problem here", and, "the money is now almost gone so we need to slow down to a crawl". So i would imagine at this point, it is too far down the line to "reverse" the sale (not that we want to tbh). Id imagine fighting the bank for recourse (LOL) to fix the issue is a nonstarter, thus it would be the previous owners who would ultimately, if we are successful, be out of pocket.(slim chance according to my logic, but i know **** all in this area). If im right, then im not sure if its worth exploring and going down this path?


Let me know your thoughts, please, folks.

Nice reading the update on the issue. Will read it again once I had a cup of coffee. The legal stuff I'll leave the experts as I see estate agents and their likes worse than slithery slimy snakes.

 

[SauRoNZA]

Right. So.

Had a contractor in to do a penetrometer test to determine if injection grouting is an avenue worth exploring. Needless to say, some pilot holes drilled around in different rooms only further increased my heart rate. The test directly below the shower floor reached a depth of 1.5m before the test movement slowed to increments of 10-20mm.

Im in discussions with an engineer now as well for a site visit and full report, but based on the follow ups and investigation thus far:

The ensuite bathroom floor has a cavity which extends into the walk in closet, as well as the guest bathroom (either side of the ensuite) where there is the most fill).
The fill beneath the floors of the original structure in the bedroom next to the master as well as in the kitchen are not compacted, but dont necessarily have cavities. The Engineer, prior to the site visit but based on the spam of pictures sent so far, does not suspect actual foundation issues at this point, only insufficient compacting of fill material, and recommends removing the floor, recompacting and piuring a new slab. I have requested a site visit (R1650) to determine more for a report.

Injection grouting (polymer based) is seemingly expensive @~R2250 a square meter, but needs to be injected "4 layers down", as well as the cavity itself. Im a bit confused by this, as the fill would be by volume, not by area, so like, how does one know when you have succeed with the process, for the entire floor? I would have thought it would work by volume and be a somewhat moving target depending on the density of the soil and the cavities within, similar to fracking, for example. Also, this method means no ground sheet... Attached the penetrometer test of the shower

I will be following up with a builder to determine the details of potentially demo'ing the floors (piece meal if possible) and understanding costs to compact and fix. The concern is the interior walls - if they are on the slab or go through it.

Having got to this point, my wife is spitting mad. The acid right now is enough to melt the floors, even though its not a joint mortgage. I knew there was work to do and it would take a number of years before getting really stuck in with big changes, but now with this issue delaying that substantially, she is really bitter. Don't get me wrong. Im also largely annoyed by this, but im staying level headed. I need to understand everything that may be on the table to consider.

Thus, my questions becomes the following:

1.) Is there any recourse here? Either we lose, or the seller loses, or the bank loses. Knowing my luck, itll be me. I saw the shower drain issue with the pre-inspection, but there was no way of knowing the floor was hollow, as i couldnt see beneath it, nor see evidence of major foundational issues.

2.) If there is recourse, who, how what? Go back to the agent / transfering attorney? Go to the bank? What does one do in these situations? We have already begun with some sort of work, such as pulling two carpets that couldn't be saved and gutting the rooms, major gardening works and tree felling, alarm installation and stripping the ensuite bathroom of course, before arriving at, "oh ****, we have a rather large problem here", and, "the money is now almost gone so we need to slow down to a crawl". So i would imagine at this point, it is too far down the line to "reverse" the sale (not that we want to tbh). Id imagine fighting the bank for recourse (LOL) to fix the issue is a nonstarter, thus it would be the previous owners who would ultimately, if we are successful, be out of pocket.(slim chance according to my logic, but i know **** all in this area). If im right, then im not sure if its worth exploring and going down this path?


Let me know your thoughts, please, folks.

Might we worth contacting your bank as the value they expect the house to be is obviously majorly affected in this case so would be a major loss for them.

More so if they had sent someone to evaluate the property and they found nothing of concern.

Also reach out to those conveyancing attorneys you already paid thousands of rands to facilitate all this, at the very least they owe you an opinion.

While I had nothing as dramatic as this I had both plumbing and electrical issues with my property after moving in and a quick call to the lawyers saw the original plumber and electrician who certified everything show up to sort it out.

 

[RandomRando]

I can imagine how you feel. I've been in a similar situation, with a leaking shower too. I got lucky in that the seller had noted on the LOD that it would be repaired, however when they did I wasn't satisfied. In the end the entire shower was chopped and re-plumbed at a huge cost to the seller. I needed to get my attorney involved as the seller's lawyer was being difficult so assigned my lawyer a watching brief to ensure it was followed through on.

I suspect in your case the transfer attorney (acting in the interest of the seller) will question how the seller would have know about the extent of the damage. Perhaps with the right photographs of this situation before you ripped it up would be able to prove this latent damage? If I were you, I'd not reach out directly to anyone, especially the TA. Have a lawyer look at doing that, however you'd need to be able to prove that the seller knew of this defect. This whole process could end up in the R50k+ in legal fees and suffering though.

The bank won't have anything to offer or add. The bank sold you a loan, with a house's deed as surety. It might seem painful at first, but chopping it out, compacting and re-casting that floor might be the path of least pain in the long run.

Best of luck to you. This can be fixed.

Ya i dont feel great NGL. We expected work and budgeted to with what we had for it, a large degree of it to be DiY that i can manage. This though, has really ****ed us and the wife is not in a good place and doesnt see the light at the moment. Admittedly, she is more instant gratification and not a marathon runner so I'll bring her round yet, but i need to get our ensuite sorted. Currently using our guest bathroom with a bath only with the ensuite door closed and both spare bedrooms with no carpeting. So effectively half a house.

Agree that itll probably be easier (less stress, legalities and cost) for me to demo the floor on advice of the engineers report, then get the builder in and redo substrate and slab. I dont have prior photos other than whats here when i begun, before pulling the laminate floor and shower floor tiles. I havent reached out to the agent ot TA yet as im not sure how it benefits me, other than spreading the sour taste further. If they will be of no use, then IMO is rather not give them or the previous owners the gratification of their bullet dodging. Better to pucker my anus, and figure this out. It can be fixed, its all about walking the financial tight rope at the moment to get to the other end.

Might we worth contacting your bank as the value they expect the house to be is obviously majorly affected in this case so would be a major loss for them.

More so if they had sent someone to evaluate the property and they found nothing of concern.

Also reach out to those conveyancing attorneys you already paid thousands of rands to facilitate all this, at the very least they owe you an opinion.

While I had nothing as dramatic as this I had both plumbing and electrical issues with my property after moving in and a quick call to the lawyers saw the original plumber and electrician who certified everything show up to sort it out.

Agree about the bank. I made a bit of a fuss about the assessor coming out and checking everything was per plan and being happy about things, "cos if he is happy, then i am happy". So i also thought about the overall value being less than what they said i must insure for.

But im guessing they'll turn it on us say its our issue to ensure we upkeep the value and fix the problem, even though the asessor missed it. Either way, ill contact the bond attorney before the TA or the Agent, if i need even contact them

 

[Katelknaap]

Condolences bud, a tough spot u find yourself in. Best advice unfortunately is to take the hit and get it sorted. Trying to hold anyone else responsible is just going to prolong the situation and will just cause more bitterness.

 

[Geoff.D]

Man am I glad I never wanted a "project" house.

You should say " man I am glad I don't know I have a project house". There is a reason why in the good old days houses were sold "voetstoots". Unfortunately many houses with cavity floors later filled in and solid floors cast have this problem of poor compacting, no damp proofing and subsequent subsidence. It can take years to become obvious.

 

[Geoff.D]

Who on earth put laminate floors like those in the bathroom.

Architects and fashion-crazy idiots.

 

[RandomRando]

Architects and fashion-crazy idiots.

This was 100% DiY. Wasnt installed well, patched down in places with silicone, including all skirtings. My mind boggles

 

[Bliksis]

You should say " man I am glad I don't know I have a project house". There is a reason why in the good old days houses were sold "voetstoots". Unfortunately many houses with cavity floors later filled in and solid floors cast have this problem of poor compacting, no damp proofing and subsequent subsidence. It can take years to become obvious.

In addition to my first post, I'll go with "Goddamn I'm glad I don't have a project house"