Got the T-word in too.
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'South Korea will remove evolution from its high school textbooks'
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OrbitalDawn
Ulysses Everett McGill
Am I the only one who gets the almost uncontrollable urge to vomit when I see Techne posting in a thread?
Yes.
Why partake in such thread then, unless you are a troll that cannot even contribute.
alloytoo
Honorary Master
Why? Who doesn't like subjective old philosophy?
"Evolution? It's rubbish, fitness cannot be measured empirically. Therefore I will single handedly destroy centuries of scientific thought by saying phenotypes do not contribute to fitness"
"Platos' Theory of Form? *jizz* Extremely.. ohh *jizz* valid. The perfect table must exist in a realm of perfects because we can recognize that a table is a table even though all tables are not the same *jizz*"
Yeah, Techne says riveting stuff. The people who defend him only do so because he is in the same belief as they are, not because they actually understand what he says.
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Some times I don't get you guys, you should know by now to explain things to people like this, use small words and tell stories, they only believe in simplistic stories, remember.
So here goes.
Two men stand next to a ravine, lets call them Sci and Yec, a volcano has erupted and they are caught with nowhere to run and will surely die from the fast flowing lava headed their way.
There is a fallen tree next to them and Sci asks Yec to help him lay it across the chasm so that they can escape a fiery death, but Yec won't help because he never read that trees may be moved and used as bridges in his holy book and decides to rather spend his time praying to his god to stop the lava and save him, after all he offered up all his sheep and worldly goods to said god the previous day to stop the volcano from erupting, but his god must have been busy stoking the fires in the volcano and didn't hear him, but he will now, the fire is raging and the lava flowing he must have time now, so Yec knows he will be saved.
Sci manages with intellect and ingenuity to manhandle the tree over the ravine on his own and crosses to safety, he calls and even begs Yec to come over the tree to safety, he even offers to go back over the man made bridge and carry him, but is snubbed, has his evidence that there is a bridge twisted against him and is called names and ultimately ignored.
You see, belief that his god will save him if he just believes hard enough, made Yec deaf to logic and reason and he is killed thinking that he just didn't pray hard enough or didn't sacrifice enough or just weren't worthy enough, maybe he looked at the pretty girl in the village with too much lust in his heart or ate some food on the wrong day, it's not for him to know.
Anyway as he burned he thought, burning alive isn't so bad, I'll be in the next world where the god that ignored me all my life will make everything better, maybe even give me 72 pretty girls like the one in the village.
Then everything turned black.
The other man could only shrug and walk home to their village where he eventually charms that pretty girl with his tale of the day the volcano erupted and made the town smarter, shags her and has smart children that learn from their dad how to build bridges and how to think for themselves.
That is the simplified definition of fitness and you have to believe what I said is true, you read it somewhere from some guy you can't even prove exists, so it must be believed or I'll be very angry and murder a bunch of innocent children and burn down cities and have people stoned for wearing two pieces of different cloth or something, or maybe I wont since I have no power at all.
So here goes.
Two men stand next to a ravine, lets call them Sci and Yec, a volcano has erupted and they are caught with nowhere to run and will surely die from the fast flowing lava headed their way.
There is a fallen tree next to them and Sci asks Yec to help him lay it across the chasm so that they can escape a fiery death, but Yec won't help because he never read that trees may be moved and used as bridges in his holy book and decides to rather spend his time praying to his god to stop the lava and save him, after all he offered up all his sheep and worldly goods to said god the previous day to stop the volcano from erupting, but his god must have been busy stoking the fires in the volcano and didn't hear him, but he will now, the fire is raging and the lava flowing he must have time now, so Yec knows he will be saved.
Sci manages with intellect and ingenuity to manhandle the tree over the ravine on his own and crosses to safety, he calls and even begs Yec to come over the tree to safety, he even offers to go back over the man made bridge and carry him, but is snubbed, has his evidence that there is a bridge twisted against him and is called names and ultimately ignored.
You see, belief that his god will save him if he just believes hard enough, made Yec deaf to logic and reason and he is killed thinking that he just didn't pray hard enough or didn't sacrifice enough or just weren't worthy enough, maybe he looked at the pretty girl in the village with too much lust in his heart or ate some food on the wrong day, it's not for him to know.
Anyway as he burned he thought, burning alive isn't so bad, I'll be in the next world where the god that ignored me all my life will make everything better, maybe even give me 72 pretty girls like the one in the village.
Then everything turned black.
The other man could only shrug and walk home to their village where he eventually charms that pretty girl with his tale of the day the volcano erupted and made the town smarter, shags her and has smart children that learn from their dad how to build bridges and how to think for themselves.
That is the simplified definition of fitness and you have to believe what I said is true, you read it somewhere from some guy you can't even prove exists, so it must be believed or I'll be very angry and murder a bunch of innocent children and burn down cities and have people stoned for wearing two pieces of different cloth or something, or maybe I wont since I have no power at all.
Elimentals
Honorary Master
Funny how humans grow from a sperm+egg to the size we do
I'll just add 2 images:
http://i.imgur.com/6Uxe3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MJaXV.gif
Instead of trying to say why evolution is true make it a reverse.
Please can the creationists give a better explanation of the evidence, or do they believe their deity that despise lies created earth 6-10 thousand years ago and make everything point to billions.
On Topic:
Its sad that they remove it from the curriculum, although our knowledge of evolution is not complete it still the best we have and it does get refined as we learn more or unearth more fossils.
I can simply equate this to the periodic table. When I started school we had no idea where all the elements came from we knew it was from fusion but we where taught the basics. Today we know what size/type stars are needed for what elements. If we removed it from the curiculim simply because our knowledge was incomplete most if not all of today's chemical compounds would never have existed.
Same goes for evolution, don't believe me, go read up on smart drugs where they use the knowledge of evolution to cure diseases.
Example: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/evolution-in-medicine/
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Kelerei
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To answer this on a personal level: I have, and I'm Christian myself.
I really don't get the point of "science vs religion" -- I don't view them at being opposed in any way. As far as the creation in the Bible goes, I interpret that figuratively, not literally.
OrbitalDawn
Ulysses Everett McGill
alloytoo said:
Deja Vu causing nauseating vertigo? Hectic.
Not to mention the near infallibility of Aquinas and Aristotle.
Kelerei said:
Good for you. There are many rational theists are quite comfortable to see it this way, and it doesn't damage their belief system.
The question that arises, though, is if this is figurative, what isn't? And who decides what's literal and what's figurative?
Personal issues?
1. What is your problem with philosophy?
2. No need to misrepresent my views. If you don't understand something I said, just ask.
3. Well, at least we both disagree with Plato's theory of forms. Don't know why you keep bringing it up though...
4. That is an unnecessary insult to other people. Why? Does it make you feel better?
Cool story bro... So, how do you understand the concept of fitness? An intrinsic causal propensity or a statistical effect or something else perhaps?
Yeah, I also don't really get this "Science is opposed to creation, faith and religion" meme. The few proponents of this meme are persistent though.To answer this on a personal level: I have, and I'm Christian myself.
I really don't get the point of "science vs religion" -- I don't view them at being opposed in any way. As far as the creation in the Bible goes, I interpret that figuratively, not literally.
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You really didn't understand a word did you and I even tried to make it really, really, really simple and even used little words you would understand.
I guess in a couple of million or so years my kind will evolve to a point where we can explain the obvious to yours.
To everyone else, sorry I wasted your time, if you read my stuff up there.
I tried but well let's face it no one can explain anything to those that wont accept the explanation, damn shame and waste of time.
No need to be rude or arrogant. I asked a simple question. Here it is again:
How do you understand the concept of fitness? An intrinsic causal propensity or a statistical effect or something else perhaps?
Your cool story above does not really answer this.
I gave an example a child could understand and you tried to turn that into another point, it's not about how many points you score on internet forums, it's about the facts and you can't seem to grasp the facts and use every trick in the book to try and sound smarter than you are to win points from your fellows.
Tell me, why is every discussion about evolution or science always twisted into a science has to prove X, when the people twisting and attacking science cant even prove their entire belief system exists, yet expect the people that HAS PROOF that evolution is a fact to continue to defend their facts over and over again.
No scientist worth his salt will ever claim to know everything concerning the creation and evolution of man or the universe nor that evolution is what created the universe, because NOBODY KNOWS OR CAN PROVE what did or did not, what you are doing is what the Yec and ID lot always do, they twist and turn and obfuscate science facts to confuse the already confused in their power.
Until someone brings proof of a god that made the universe and everything else, rational thinking people shouldn't even converse with people that face the truth and chooses to deny it's existence.
I believe that warrants some arrogance and rudeness.
Evolution is fact, scientists calls it a theory because there is always more to learn, that is what real scientist do, they learn and adapt new information all the time.
Even the Catholic Church, yes those mad, murderous (expletive removed) that killed untold millions because of religion accepts evolution and thinks Darwin was on the right track.
The South-Koreans screwed up because of a bunch of fairy tale fans sneaked around and got a fellow delusional politician to forward some papers, frankly I don't think the South Korean government will let that stand, they are not that stupid.
Young earth creationists and intelligent design nutters always demand proof yet has no proof of their own, bring us proof and we will gladly suffer your idiocy, until then stay out of our classrooms !
Sheesh dude, it's a simple question. No need to make this about religion. I have no problem with evolution or abiogenesis or big bang cosmology or quantum physics etc, I am not a YEC or an IDer.
I am just trying to understand how your view of fitness fits in with the current debate surrounding the concept. It is not clear from your story. Again, how do you understand the concept of fitness? An intrinsic causal propensity or a statistical effect or something else perhaps?
Anyway, there are various proofs for the existence of God. I don't expect everyone to accept them, in fact it is expected that people may simply reject them as some may reject for example mathematical proofs on pains of epidemiological concerns. The point is that your arrogance and rudeness are unwarranted against those who accept these proofs if you do not wish to engage with them in a constructive and civil manner.
Gunner182
Expert Member
From the little I can remember from School is that we have a common ancestor with the fish. Yeah right! I'd rather believe in my imaginary friend.
I'm sorry, when I said
I meant that and bring us proof before I will interact with you on any subject because the only thing I see is you using the old play the martyr and repeat the questions trick till it fits your prepared fake answer, right out of the ID handbook.
I don't want to talk to you until you can prove what you have to say, the burden of proof is yours not mine or sciences, until then don't ask us to prove facts or to discuss anything with you that is science related.
And no there is absolutely no proof of any gods existence so my arrogance and rudeness is warranted.
Prove me wrong till then, ..............
STS
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first you want us to agree that our pinkie is useless, which for argument sake i will. then you say it actually is useful after we've agreed that it is is useless? i do not understand what you are trying to say here?
of course a pinkie is useful, you would have been better off using the appendix as as an example as this is evolutionary baggage. whether something is useful or not does not give it teleology. if that is the case then anything in existance has can be said to be goal orientated or have a purpose because at some point something might use it for something.
i agree with you fully, until you said we end up with a teleological concept, why? i understand with wording and metaphors that we make create the illusion of teleology, but it's like rocks being flung out of a volcano with some landing on an island sticking out of the ocean and the rest landing in the water. the fact that we say some of the rocks missed the island while some did not creates the illusion that the island was a target, btu the rocks had no intent of heading towards the island nor of benefitting from landing on it, they simply just did. this is the case with the evolution, there is no goal, the fact that certain mutations benefit the organism or hinder it says nothing about the process.
i don't see how i am forcing metaphysics into this when i have said "this something that evolution makes no use of. outside biology and outside science you can use teleology all you like as it is a man made concept". i have said over and over that there are no goals and that mutations just happen, just as elements join and break up with no intention or direction. i believe i've been trying to stress this and i may not hav been coming across clearly.
mutations are random. fitness is determined by an organism's ability to survive and reproduce and happens regardless of new mutations or not. some mutations are even useless happen but cause no effect at all in the organism. if mutations happen that cause no results, then how is that teleological and what is the point of mutations other than being random events?
STS
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your imaginary friend probably came from a fish too, if genetics is anything to go by
Again, I am not a supporter of ID. Also, I am not here to "prove you wrong". We are just having a conversation. If I had the same attitude towards you then "I don't want to talk to you until you can prove what you have to say" and ask you to prove that "there is absolutely no proof of any gods existence" since it is quite a bold statement.
Anyway, I can only ask you to read up on the various proofs for the existence of God. May I suggest the following article.
If you still don't want to talk to me, that is fine. However, I am still interested to understand how your view of fitness fits in with the current debate surrounding the concept. Welcome to share your thoughts anytime
.