Sovereign Citizens

Dude, stop trying to retcon history so you can notch another enemy under the 'left' column which you so despise.

Statism is not unique to the left, and Nazism is fascist, which is a far right ideology.

Read the wiki, it describes everything you're confused about, including how it was developed in specific rejection of socialism (and Marxism's core premise) and how it was in specific opposition to the left everywhere it was encountered.

Mussolini was born into a Marxist family and was one for a while, but ultimately rejected it in favour of fascism.

Dude, stop trying to retcon history so you can notch another enemy under the 'left' column which you so despise.

Statism is not unique to the left, and Nazism is fascist, which is a far right ideology.

Read the wiki, it describes everything you're confused about, including how it was developed in specific rejection of socialism (and Marxism's core premise) and how it was in specific opposition to the left everywhere it was encountered.

Mussolini was born into a Marxist family and was one for a while, but ultimately rejected it in favour of fascism.

Answer the question:
Which party are more likely do this in the US. The left wing party or the Right wing party.
included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing, and old age and disability insurance.

You have literally said your definition of the right wing is that position opposite of left wing politics. From what they actually do: they are almost identical. All they differ by are the different definitions of the oppressed class.
And yes, statism is a fundamental part of it, since you cannot do any of those things that both the Nazis and communists. However the "natural" order of society is that without a state (hence the actual conservative standpoint of having a smaller state), you can have right wing politics with a diminished state. You cannot have left wing politics without a state, it is impossible.

And just because two ideologies have things in common doesn't mean they don't hate each other. Religious conflict is an excellent example of this. Both Islam and Christianity have major schisms in them, despite both religions containing Christians and Muslims. In fact, I would view they would hate each other more.

This was why, in part, Hitler first went after the communists after he got to power as they were the people who had the most similar ideology, thus they were the biggest competition.

Take the objective view and judge these ideologies by their actions, not their definitions and the sad, murderous history of the 20th century will make much more sense instead of relying on bonkers things like the horseshoe theory to explain why Nazism and Communism both murdered millions of people.
 
Answer the question:
Which party are more likely do this in the US. The left wing party or the Right wing party.

Why you think this kind of question makes any sense remains mysterious. Come on, dude.

Is fascism the first thing you think of when you think of paid vacations or food assistance programmes?

konfab said:
You have literally said your definition of the right wing is that position opposite of left wing politics.

Where?

konfab said:
From what they actually do: they are almost identical. All they differ by are the different definitions of the oppressed class.

Like destroying labour unions, killing and persecuting the left, propagating imperialism, strongly advocating nationalism, rejecting internationalism, allying with right wing/conservative parties, rejecting class conflict, rejecting egalitarianism, pushing social darwinism etc.?

No, that's fundamentally incorrect.

Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

konfab said:
And yes, statism is a fundamental part of it, since you cannot do any of those things that both the Nazis and communists. However the "natural" order of society is that without a state (hence the actual conservative standpoint of having a smaller state), you can have right wing politics with a diminished state. You cannot have left wing politics without a state, it is impossible.

Of course you can. Anarchism and communism aim for stateless societies.

Your dichotomy of 'left = more government, right = less government' is a-historical and inaccurate.

The right wing apartheid government was also heavily statist.

konfab said:
This was why, in part, Hitler first went after the communists after he got to power as they were the people who had the most similar ideology, thus they were the biggest competition.

No, that was one part of it. The other part was his virulent hate of the ideology, and building Nazism explicitly in opposition to communism.
 
Statism is not unique to the left, and Nazism is fascist, which is a far right ideology

hmmmmm, let's have a think about that: fascism
a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

"that exalts nation and often race" ... damn BLM!
"stands for a centralized autocratic government" ... TPP anyone? obamacare? unilateral war?
"severe economic and social regimentation" ... quantitative easing anyone? safe spaces common place?
"forcible suppression of opposition" ... Antifa to a 't'

Not exactly unique to the right now is it? :whistle:
 
I routinely re-watch those compilation vids of sovereign citizens getting owned.

This is my favorite one:
You're trying to attack my nuts, that is not proper use of that device!

:crylaugh::crylaugh::crylaugh:
 
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The only argument that I have ever heard from a Sovereign citizen, where I thought, "you know what, he has a point". Was when a guy was told to stop fishing in a river. The river was not owned by any private citizen, nor was the property he was fishing on, owned by any private citizen.
So however that land's ownership is dealt with I dont know the proper terms, but lets just say it is owned by the state essentially. So this guy gets stopped from fishing because it is a state law to not fish the rivers. This guy's argument was that he needed food.

Now I get that with the human population being what it is, we cant have everyone fishing the **** out of rivers anymore, as the rivers will just run out of fish. But the guy has a point on that. He is like a hobo without a job or money. At least he is trying to provide for himself without turning to a more direct and defined crime like robbing a store, or breaking into a home.

I laugh my ass off at the ones that start speaking as though they are transcendent beings from another plane of existence. Absolutely nutty for sure. But every now and then one of them says something that has the tiniest inkling of truth to it, where you might think to yourself: "I have no way of providing for myself or my family, that is not within the system that is designed to enrich the rich, and that kinda sucks ass."
 
The only argument that I have ever heard from a Sovereign citizen, where I thought, "you know what, he has a point". Was when a guy was told to stop fishing in a river. The river was not owned by any private citizen, nor was the property he was fishing on, owned by any private citizen.
So however that land's ownership is dealt with I dont know the proper terms, but lets just say it is owned by the state essentially. So this guy gets stopped from fishing because it is a state law to not fish the rivers. This guy's argument was that he needed food.

Now I get that with the human population being what it is, we cant have everyone fishing the **** out of rivers anymore, as the rivers will just run out of fish. But the guy has a point on that. He is like a hobo without a job or money. At least he is trying to provide for himself without turning to a more direct and defined crime like robbing a store, or breaking into a home.

I laugh my ass off at the ones that start speaking as though they are transcendent beings from another plane of existence. Absolutely nutty for sure. But every now and then one of them says something that has the tiniest inkling of truth to it, where you might think to yourself: "I have no way of providing for myself or my family, that is not within the system that is designed to enrich the rich, and that kinda sucks ass."

That's why social safety nets are good. :)
 
I watched it last night, it is quite funny. These guys definitely all read the same extreme liberty site somewhere, giving them misinformation about police procedures, and how their constitution works.
Then it also shows perfectly well what's wrong with the police state in the US and most of the world by extention, smashing windows and tazing people for being stupid. You can't blame people for no longer trusting the police, when they have become completely authoritarian. They are no longer there to help people.
 
I watched it last night, it is quite funny. These guys definitely all read the same extreme liberty site somewhere, giving them misinformation about police procedures, and how their constitution works.
Then it also shows perfectly well what's wrong with the police state in the US and most of the world by extention, smashing windows and tazing people for being stupid. You can't blame people for no longer trusting the police, when they have become completely authoritarian. They are no longer there to help people.

If you drive on the roads without a licence or insurance, you are a hazard to other people. That is why the police resort to smashing windows.
 
If you drive on the roads without a licence or insurance, you are a hazard to other people. That is why the police resort to smashing windows.
No, not really. A licence doesn't guarantee someones driving ability. You can have a licence and still kill someone else in a car accident or drive without a licence and not cause an accident at all.
In SA if you can identify yourself and say something like you left your licence at home the fine is R1000 reduce to R100 if you go with your licence to proof you weren't lying.
The police and state use force to assert their authority, the only reason for the force is to get people to submit to that authority. The risk to other people is almost irrelevant. In SA the cops would let you continue on driving without a licence after handing you a fine, as long as you respect their authority and smile while they write out the fine.
 
Why you think this kind of question makes any sense remains mysterious. Come on, dude.
It makes sense because it is taking the left wing position of replacing individual responsibility with responsibility taken on by the state.

Is fascism the first thing you think of when you think of paid vacations or food assistance programmes?.
When you use the power of the state to force people to do things, it is fascism.


Read the wiki, it describes everything you're confused about, including how it was developed in specific rejection of socialism (and Marxism's core premise) and how it was in specific opposition to the left everywhere it was encountered.


Like destroying labour unions, killing and persecuting the left, propagating imperialism, strongly advocating nationalism, rejecting internationalism, allying with right wing/conservative parties, rejecting class conflict, rejecting egalitarianism, pushing social darwinism etc.?
Labour unions:
During the not-proper-communism Stalinist era:
During the Great Terror, the distortion of interests, whereby unions fought for state production interests rather than workers' direct interests of compensation and safety, reached the point of absurdity, as no degree of unsafe working conditions or low pay could be countered by the unions if the party and state decided that the sacrifices must be made. .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_the_Soviet_Union
killing and persecuting the left, rejecting egalitarianism
By 1936 the Gulag held a total of 5,000,000 prisoners, a number that was probably equaled or exceeded every subsequent year until Stalin died in 1953. Besides rich or resistant peasants arrested during collectivization, persons sent to the Gulag included purged Communist Party members and military officers, German and other Axis prisoners of war (during World War II), members of ethnic groups suspected of disloyalty, Soviet soldiers and other citizens who had been taken prisoner or used as slave labourers by the Germans during the war, suspected saboteurs and traitors, dissident intellectuals, ordinary criminals, and many utterly innocent people who were hapless victims of Stalin’s purges.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Gulag
If you project the wrong communism in a communist country, you are just as persecuted as anyone else. Also I would love to know how your definition of egalitarianism can exist when you can take away someone's property because they are perceived to be richer than you.


Of course you can. Anarchism and communism aim for stateless societies. .
Communism does this in the perfectly logical manner by building the largest state possible.

Your dichotomy of 'left = more government, right = less government' is a-historical and inaccurate.
That is not the dichotomy I am projecting.
What I am saying is:
Left = collective, right = individual. An ideal right wing government is one where the state exists to fulfil the individual (which in itself is an idea that comes from Christianity) . This is why most western governments are mostly centre right.

The ideal left wing government is one where the individual exists to fulfil the state. This describes every single totalitarian regime in the world.

Look at the two theories and tell me which one makes more predictions.
Your version where left wing = collectivism based around class conflict, now switched to identity politics. Whereas right wing = collectivism based around the state and identity politics.
It doesn't make coherent sense IMO since you see people who call themselves left wing willingly embrace racism and sexism. This describes the Democrats in the US and the ANC in this country. It also doesn't require bogus things like horseshoe theory to explain the glaring similarities between what you call right wing extremism and left wing extremism

If you look at what I define as left and right, everything falls into a much more cohesive framework. It explains the obvious racism and sexism that the left is displaying in the US and this country, as well as describing accurately what happened in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. It also locates actual right wing, anti-government terrorism into a more far more cohesive position. The Nazi's et al actually want a strong totalitarian government to fulfil their racist wishes, since it would be impossible to it without it. It also places something like gun ownership (which is an expression of individualism), in the correct place. A so called "right-wing" government like the Nazis according to you then would have a lot to do with the NRA with the right to own guns. This certainly wasn't the case:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_legislation_in_Germany#Gun_regulation_of_the_Third_Reich

It also explains the statistics that the FBI puts out by saying right-wing extremism is a larger threat than left wing extremism. It isn't the almost non-existing Neo-Nazis and KKK. It is people like the Oklahoma city bomber who are anti-government. Heck there was a recent attempt to repeat the bombings that was foiled. That guy wasn't a Nazi, he was anti-government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh
Nichols' anti-government views developed and grew over the years.[6] Nichols spent most of his adult life in the Lapeer and Sanilac County areas of Michigan where mistrust and resentment of the federal government was common, especially after bank repossessions of many farms in the 1980s.[25] Neighbors said he attended meetings of anti-government groups, experimented with explosives and got more radical as time went on.[14] In February 1992, he attempted to renounce his US citizenship by writing to the local county clerk in Michigan, stating that the political system was corrupt, and declaring himself a "non resident alien".[3][5] Several months later, he appeared in court and tried to avoid responsibility for some of his credit card bills (he owed approximately $40,000 altogether), refusing to come before the bench, and shouting at the judge that the government had no jurisdiction over him.[5][15] On October 19, 1992, he signed another document renouncing his US citizenship.[14] In May 1993 Nichols appeared before a county judge regarding an $8,421 unpaid credit card debt.[14] He also renounced his driver license.[15]

The right wing apartheid government was also heavily statist.
Another example where you are wrong. Apartheid's fundamental power initially started off with left wing Afrikaaner trade unions who felt they were being unfairly treated because black labourers were working at a lower rate then working class Afrikaaners, thus resorted to collectivism and the state to correct the injustice put upon them.


You look at the similarities between communism and Nazism and tell me which theory fits:
Both pathologically distort the truth through propaganda.
Both have a religious fervour for scientific progress.
Both required large totalitarian states.
Both practised discrimination based on arbitrary basies(be it class or race).
Both murdered millions.
Both went bankrupt.
Both were powered by mobilising the working class.
Both wanted to destroy religion.
Both had zero respect for private property and private liberty.
Both wanted to allocate resources from the "privileged" group to the "unprivileged" group.

It even works for this country with the ANC doing down exactly the same roads, using exactly the same tricks as the Nats did.
 
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Defining politics by where 18th C Frenchmen located their posteriors in a tennis court is long past its sell-by date. "Left" and "Right" are antique and irrelevant notions, though they still infect most academics raised in Durkheim's madhouse.

There's really very little difference in principle between Hitler and Stalin. Both were statist-collectivists (ie socialists) who wanted to abolish private property, which they both regarded as a pathology of the main disease called Capitalism. The whole left-right political spectrum is a woefully inadequate and misbegotten framework for analysing and understanding the political-economy. It's 19th C thinking still carried forward in this day by people contaminated by decadent 19th C German philosophy.
 
Defining politics by where 18th C Frenchmen located their posteriors in a tennis court is long past its sell-by date. "Left" and "Right" are antique and irrelevant notions, though they still infect most academics raised in Durkheim's madhouse.

There's really very little difference in principle between Hitler and Stalin. Both were statist-collectivists (ie socialists) who wanted to abolish private property, which they both regarded as a pathology of the main disease called Capitalism. The whole left-right political spectrum is a woefully inadequate and misbegotten framework for analysing and understanding the political-economy. It's 19th C thinking still carried forward in this day by people contaminated by decadent 19th C German philosophy.
It still works if you use the spectrum with x and y axes and add authoritarian and libertarian.
The guys at the top is normally the bad guys.
 
It still works if you use the spectrum with x and y axes and add authoritarian and libertarian.
The guys at the top is normally the bad guys.
Hehe. But Left and Right are content-free ideas. You always have to define them with other terms, so why not just use those terms.

They way they've been deployed for the past century is not to communicate content but to label and libel. They obfuscate so that pejoratives can be hurled.
 
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That is not the dichotomy I am projecting.
What I am saying is:
Left = collective, right = individual. An ideal right wing government is one where the state exists to fulfil the individual (which in itself is an idea that comes from Christianity) . This is why most western governments are mostly centre right.

The ideal left wing government is one where the individual exists to fulfil the state. This describes every single totalitarian regime in the world.

No wonder you're so confused. You think the only political ideology on the right is libertarianism.

That's wildly a-historical, incomplete and inaccurate.

But Arthur is correct in that the left-right descriptor is way past its sell-by date.
 
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