State capture inquiry begins

The_Mowgs

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Not just the Bank of Baroda that facilitated state capture:
I was going to say Nedbank is next but then I opened the link and saw they talk about them. Theres another bank that also helped move more than R100m at a time without alerting the necessary departments regarding huge amounts of cash being moved around.
 

surface

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I was going to say Nedbank is next but then I opened the link and saw they talk about them. Theres another bank that also helped move more than R100m at a time without alerting the necessary departments regarding huge amounts of cash being moved around.
Names SBSA & FNB should follow soon.
 

garp

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Gosh, the crazy expensive Zondo Commission farce is still going 18 months later?! Mind you, I guess they can drag it out forever if they want - it is, after all, a handy cover for not actually prosecuting anyone, the standard excuse seems to be "well we have to wait for the Zondo commission findings". We still don't have proper closure on the Seriti commission (arms deal) whitewash from how long ago??
 

TysonRoux

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Gosh, the crazy expensive Zondo Commission farce is still going 18 months later?! Mind you, I guess they can drag it out forever if they want - it is, after all, a handy cover for not actually prosecuting anyone, the standard excuse seems to be "well we have to wait for the Zondo commission findings". We still don't have proper closure on the Seriti commission (arms deal) whitewash from how long ago??
Didn't the NPA recently make a statement that there is no reason to wait for the Zondo commission to conclude before prosecuting the cadres?

2019-11-19
 

TysonRoux

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Not one stinking ANC cadre arrested and jailed.


Gravy Trains: R500m from failed Prasa locomotives deal ‘fraudulently’ funnelled to trust, private accounts and properties

 

3WA

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After a string of expensive legal losses, former president Jacob Zuma has scored a potentially significant victory by persuading the Supreme Court of Appeal to hear his challenge to the estimated R10m personal costs order granted against him in his failed state-capture report litigation.

It is certain that the former head of state will use this hearing, now set for March 26, to again ventilate his arguments that the Zondo inquiry into state capture was established in an unconstitutional manner because he as president was not allowed to choose the judge who would preside over the commission.
Zuma has energy again (or should I say that the clone who came back from Cuba has energy, while the real Zuma enjoys his retirement somewhere obscure).
 

The_Librarian

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it's things like these that makes me depressed as I (and other taxpayers) end up paying for that... :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

The_Librarian

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so nedbank et al facilitated money laundering.

if ewc happens, they can hold the ball jolly well, I will not.
 

TysonRoux

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Fulcrum29

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Amnesty suggested as a way to deal with State Capture cases
Should those implicated in the massive corruption that led to State Capture be offered amnesty in exchange for full disclosure and the return of public funds? This was the controversial suggestion discussed by the first panel at The Gathering, hosted by Daily Maverick at the Cape Town International Conference Centre on Friday. The full proposal, made by corporate lawyer Robert Appelbaum, will be published later on Friday but the panel raised concerns about how this would impact on accountability, justice and public perception in South Africa.

Those implicated in State Capture should be offered amnesty in exchange for full disclosure and the return of public funds, Webber Wentzel partner and corporate lawyer Robert Appelbaum suggested on Friday, as a way to relieve pressure on the National Prosecuting Authority and find a different way of dealing with extensive corruption in South Africa.

Continued...
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-03-06-amnesty-suggested-as-a-way-to-deal-with-state-capture-cases/

Amnesty has been previously suggested as a solution, but in my opinion, we will repeat a circle.

1) Full disclosure will be a result of half-truths or another version of the truth, and to be honest this may even result in being shifted to WMC proponents. Truths are told by the victors, and amnesty will be a victory for the corrupt.

2) Return of public funds, surely they meant the return of pennies? There is absolutely no way we will recover the funds lost in corruption, partial recovery, yes, which will be minuscule.

After the acceptance of amnesty, rinse and repeat.

I agree with Lwando Xaso, justice must stand a chance. She said,

“What is the alternative? If you ask if justice will stand a chance, it is the same as asking if the country stands a chance? I don’t want to find out what it looks like if the answer is no. Justice stands a chance because we do not have an alternative. We are invested in it working. If it doesn’t work it will leave us in a very insecure position,” she added. “I judge the state of the country by the conduct of taxi drivers. Success to me looks like taxi drivers abiding by the three colours of a robot.”
which Appelbaum argued that justice will be best served in South Africa by providing amnesty, and I don't agree with this. He further added,

“It will be controversial,” Appelbaum said. “But it is not a get-out-of-jail free card. Amnesty will require full disclosure, the return of ill-gotten gains and records being made available to the prosecuting authorities.

“It will give the NPA some breathing space to vigorously pursue those who did not qualify for amnesty,” he said.
but how? Yes, it will be stupidly controversial, and what is the qualification criteria? Those he is talking about are many of whom already have protection from self-incrimination.

It is best to read the article, anyway,



and just on another note, I see the Daily Maverick is under attack from the pro radical policy cohorts. Though there is truth in this matter or not, it doesn't bode well for media houses with certain views.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised to see Zuma receive amnesty which he will turn into his own show as always, but this will set a trend for many to follow. Zuma, he will never #paybackthemoney
 

The_Mowgs

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https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-03-06-amnesty-suggested-as-a-way-to-deal-with-state-capture-cases/

Amnesty has been previously suggested as a solution, but in my opinion, we will repeat a circle.

1) Full disclosure will be a result of half-truths or another version of the truth, and to be honest this may even result in being shifted to WMC proponents. Truths are told by the victors, and amnesty will be a victory for the corrupt.

2) Return of public funds, surely they meant the return of pennies? There is absolutely no way we will recover the funds lost in corruption, partial recovery, yes, which will be minuscule.

After the acceptance of amnesty, rinse and repeat.

I agree with Lwando Xaso, justice must stand a chance. She said,



which Appelbaum argued that justice will be best served in South Africa by providing amnesty, and I don't agree with this. He further added,



but how? Yes, it will be stupidly controversial, and what is the qualification criteria? Those he is talking about are many of whom already have protection from self-incrimination.

It is best to read the article, anyway,



and just on another note, I see the Daily Maverick is under attack from the pro radical policy cohorts. Though there is truth in this matter or not, it doesn't bode well for media houses with certain views.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be surprised to see Zuma receive amnesty which he will turn into his own show as always, but this will set a trend for many to follow. Zuma, he will never #paybackthemoney
This is what I have been saying from the start is what is going to happen. History will just repeat itself.
 

TysonRoux

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This is what I have been saying from the start is what is going to happen. History will just repeat itself.
A slap in the face of the taxpayers funding the fake Zondo Commission.

in exchange for full disclosure and the return of public funds
That will never happen, and nothing will change, they will continue to enjoy their ill-gotten loot.
 

Fulcrum29

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I see more lawyers are currently supporting Amnesty to be applied to 'corruption' charges. Here is the document (or proposal) authored and compiled by Robert Appelbaum, Gavin Rome, Sechaba Mohapi and Ryan Hopkins.

https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/wp-...SIVE-AMNESTY-PROCESS-final-clean-03032020.pdf (PDF)

Those in support are heavy weights. I agree with this opinion by Mandy Wiener,


Mandy Wiener: Amnesty for corruption? It would look like we've given up
The proposal is enormously controversial and seemingly being shot down by the public and correctly so, but often when such radical ideas are given time to marinate, they become more palatable, writes Mandy Wiener

"What?!" snapped National Director of Public Prosecutions Shamila Batohi in response to a question about a proposed corruption amnesty, while on the stage at the Daily Maverick’s Gathering on Friday.

Interviewer Rebecca Davis asked the head of the NPA for her view on an idea that had been put on the table at the conference earlier in the day by a group of lawyers.

The four - Robert Appelbaum, Ryan Hopkins, Adv Gavin Rome SC and Adv Sechaba Mohapi, have written a paper outlining their proposal which you can read in full here.

Batohi appeared repulsed by the idea, aghast that it could even be proposed.

That’s not entirely surprising as the floating of such an enormously controversial concept is almost last gasp.

It is a manifestation of the mounting frustration within South Africa at the lack of visible and tangible justice for those responsible for looting the state’s coffers during the state capture project.

It is an indication that many are losing faith in the restoration of the National Prosecuting Authority and the feeling is that the task is simply too vast and overwhelming for her and her prosecutors to cope with.

To her credit, Batohi absolutely acknowledged this sentiment during her interview.

She is well aware that time is running out and that expectations are running high.

But she was at pains to give the assurance that a lot of work is being done behind the scenes and they have the looters in their sights.

Batohi's response to the mooted corruption amnesty idea is likely to be the reaction from many South Africans.

The idea is radical.

But it hasn’t come out of nowhere like a bolt from the blue.

I have increasingly been hearing the idea suggested to me at public or corporate events where I’ve spoken about the criminal justice system and the "fight back" campaign against Ramaphosa’s New Dawn.

There is a desperate frustration about the lack of action.

Drawing on the example of the corruption amnesty adopted in Hong Kong in the 1970s, the authors have emphasised the need for innovative measures to be used if the legacy and prevalence of state corruption is to be overcome.

"We contend that the time has come for South Africans to accept that, although, in an ideal society, all those involved in corrupt activities and the looting of the state coffers ought to be tried, convicted and incarcerated for their actions, in the current state of affairs, it simply is not possible to bring all individuals involved in corruption to justice.

"However, if South Africa embarks on an amnesty process that permits government officials, and the general population, to start afresh, free from the web of corruption that is the legacy of State Capture, the country could commit its focus towards reinvigorating the South African economy, for the benefit of society as a whole."

They argue that when corruption is so systemic in nature as it is in South Africa, it makes it ubiquitous and expected, part of our social fabric.

"Where corruption is systemic, it is unlikely that institutions charged with prosecuting corrupt activities would have the capacity to investigate and prosecute the sheer number of corrupt acts and corrupt individuals that exist.

"What is needed, therefore, is a means to eradicate the seemingly impenetrable resistance and inertia that conventional anti-corruption measures face, as well as to decrease the overwhelming number of corrupt individuals and corrupt acts. Ultimately, what is required is a means by which to establish a change in social and political culture."

The arguments against a corruption amnesty are strong and vast.

Who would qualify for it? Where do you draw the line? What penalties are imposed? Do the applicants pay back all the money they stole or just a penalty? Would the record be public or is it kept private?

One of the most concerning implications would be a perpetuation of the impression that the wealthy and powerful in this country benefit from a different type of justice to the masses.

Why not an amnesty for petty theft if you’re going to be doing it for grand scale looting?

The authors insist that they are not suggesting a "get out of jail free card".

"A fixed prerequisite in the process would require that applications for amnesty be conditional on full disclosure of the relevant corrupt activities and the parties involved. Consequently, those who admit to corruption, but are later revealed not to have made (full) disclosure, would either not be granted amnesty or have their applications revoked," they write.?

But it sure as hell looks like what we would be offering those responsible for gorging themselves at the expense of taxpayers, is a way out of accountability.

It’s a back door option for those facing the prospect of a jail term in orange overalls.

Personally, I definitely don’t believe we are there yet.

It's an easy way out. It's giving up.

Instead we need to buckle down, support the rebuilding of the criminal justice system and exercise more patience.

These criminal trials are going to run for many years to come still and that is how democracy works.

It is fundamentally important to the country’s psyche that we go through the cathartic process of seeing those responsible in the dock and on trial where evidence is led and testimony is heard.

It is the only way we are going to restore our faith in the rule of law.

Justice not only needs to be done, it needs to be seen to be done.

However I do think the proposal is brave and an important contribution to the conversation around accountability and the restoration of the justice system.

We do need to be innovative and out the box in our thinking.

So while the idea may be instinctively dismissed out of hand, often when given time to marinate in the public consciousness, such radical concepts may become more palatable to the public.

I imagine that is the premise the four authors are banking on.

They’re floating the idea out there, albeit prematurely, in the hope that when we run out of options, this will be the ultimate conclusion.
but this has turned into a bloody expensive exercise, and we still need to see whether Zondo's report will yield any positive results (or convictions). We don't even know how the president will react... it is already known that the report will have parts reducted which won't be accessible to the public.

The state is bleeding money to 'address' corruption (or state capture) whilst the NPA is recovering which should have handled the work done by the Zondo Commission in any case. Then there is a question whether the Zondo Commission and the prosecution authorities can be trusted with this process.

Zuma, even in an 'ill' condition is still winning. Say we go with an amnesty agreement, who is going to make that announcement? Ramaphosa? The bigger question will be who is going to receive the amnesty treatment and who is going to pay the time? The moment amnesty is called, the 'corrupt' are going to herd the 'scapegoats' together.
 
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