Students question #RhodesMustFall

[Hamish McPanji]

What has slave labour got to do with it? The DRC had the infrastructure and resources to maintain what they had, their corrupt leaders decided to enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of the country. The DRC should be a wealthy and strong country, have you seen what natural resources it still has? Even after decades of the country being raped by its ruling elite and their foreign helpers (mostly Chinese, these days iirc).

Perhaps go and learn a little about a situation before making hysterical sound bites...

I only go there every 6 weeks or so, so am totally clueless about their history or anything about the DRC.

They had infrastructure and resources and a distinct lack of an educated workforce to maintain it. And the infrastructure was built at a scale the could only sustain an affluent and very racist minority, who were very upset that they had to share....and could not help dabbling in influencing the local politics that emerged.

And they gained independence and fell immediately victim to the cold war.....which maintained the ruling elite with their foreign helpers (mostly European) who propped up their corrupt leadership for a long time.

What emerged from that period was not a country, but a group of largely independant provinces where the president has to beg governers for money and assistance.

 

[Dave]

They had infrastructure and resources and a distinct lack of an educated workforce to maintain it. And the infrastructure was built at a scale the could only sustain an affluent and very racist minority, who were very upset that they had to share...

So you are saying the Congolese didn't have the education or ability to even maintain railway lines? Or dredge the waterways of the Congo?

Wow, nothing like denigrating an entire nation as stupid and uneducated there...

With a little bit of leadership, and a little less corruption the basics could have been maintained. No one is saying they had to start a space program.

Tell me, from the mid-60s on, who was the "very racist minority, who were very upset that they had to share..."?

 

[Hamish McPanji]

So you are saying the Congolese didn't have the education or ability to even maintain railway lines? Or dredge the waterways of the Congo?

Wow, nothing like denigrating an entire nation as stupid and uneducated there...

With a little bit of leadership, and a little less corruption the basics could have been maintained. No one is saying they had to start a space program.

Tell me, post 1961, who was the "very racist minority, who were very upset that they had to share..."?

Don't be so deliberately obtuse. The local Congolese were only given opportunities to adequate education in the 1950's when the Belgians started changing their attitudes.

That was the problem, not the Congolese . And uneducated does not mean stupid.

As for leadership, i really think you seem not to have read any Congolese history at all. A puppet Western friendly dictatorial leader was installed whose excesses and corruption was totally ignored as he handed them the keys to the kingdom.

That Includes not properly reclaiming the mining shares that were still held by Belgians. FYI his name was Mobutu. He was a US and Belgian bitch and is largely responsible for the deterioration of the state of Congo.

I mean limited land rights were only granted to them in the 1950's ffs. They were curfewed at night in the cities. Sound familiar? It should.

And they had independence 5-6 years after that.

 

[YeOldeOke]

Don't be so deliberately obtuse. The local Congolese were only given opportunities to adequate education in the 1950's when the Belgians started changing their attitudes.

That was the problem, not the Congolese . And uneducated does not mean stupid.

As for leadership, i really think you seem not to have read any Congolese history at all. A puppet Western friendly dictatorial leader was installed whose excesses and corruption was totally ignored as he handed them the keys to the kingdom.

That Includes not properly reclaiming the mining shares that were still held by Belgians. FYI his name was Mobutu. He was a US and Belgian bitch and is largely responsible for the deterioration of the state of Congo.

I mean limited land rights were only granted to them in the 1950's ffs. They were curfewed at night in the cities. Sound familiar? It should.

And they had independence 5-6 years after that.

Much of what you say is true, but again, you are looking at it in isolation and appear to justify the lack of progress simply by shovelling all the blame onto a troubled history.

SEA, for instance, has just as much, if not more, of a troubled history yet look at what they have achieved in the last half century. Corrupt leaders, war, colonisation etc is not only an African story. But it does seem to be only an African excuse.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Much of what you say is true, but again, you are looking at it in isolation and appear to justify the lack of progress simply by shovelling all the blame onto a troubled history.

SEA, for instance, has just as much, if not more, of a troubled history yet look at what they have achieved in the last half century. Corrupt leaders, war, colonisation etc is not only an African story. But it does seem to be only an African excuse.

No, I am just directly responding to Dave's narrative about this wonderful infrastructure which the Africans destroyed. He is viewing it in total isolation , whilst ignoring everything else that that might detract from that narrative

As an example, he mentions the foreign helpers specifically mentioning the Chinese. Why? They had no effect in the country at the time when this infrastructure existed. He speaks about leadership and corruption, but ignored the fact that the leader of the country was murdered in a plot between the CIA , the Belgians and their chosen replacement leader Mobutu (no tinfoil hat here, the Belgians all but admitted it and apologised a decade ago)

And he could have mentioned numerous other countries and I would probably have not responded. But DRC is a very special case. With a very violent and disturbing history. It should technically not be a single country, and has a resource curse of note.

I am not excusing the lack of development by African countries, but you have to understand that most African countries have had less than 30 years of actual independence as that is the only time their imposed cold war leaders were deposed

 

[YeOldeOke]

No, I am just directly responding to Dave's narrative about this wonderful infrastructure which the Africans destroyed. He is viewing it in total isolation , whilst ignoring everything else that that might detract from that narrative

As an example, he mentions the foreign helpers specifically mentioning the Chinese. Why? They had no effect in the country at the time when this infrastructure existed. He speaks about leadership and corruption, but ignored the fact that the leader of the country was murdered in a plot between the CIA , the Belgians and their chosen replacement leader Mobutu (no tinfoil hat here, the Belgians all but admitted it and apologised a decade ago)

And he could have mentioned numerous other countries and I would probably have not responded. But DRC is a very special case. With a very violent and disturbing history. It should technically not be a single country, and has a resource curse of note.

I am not excusing the lack of development by African countries, but you have to understand that most African countries have had less than 30 years of actual independence as that is the only time their imposed cold war leaders were deposed

I've lived through a lot of this recent history so I am fully aware of most of it. Also of the devastating Indochina wars/Vietnam war, Cold war, Pol Pot and a host of other disasters. Again, DRC is not such a great exception.

It was all terrible yes. My grave concern - and it really is concern, not simply derogation, I came back to SA because I love Africa - is the fact that when it comes to Africa well-meaning people entrench the idea that history is the main reason it is mired in disaster. This helps chain Africa to where it is, in the past. More responsibility for its present and future should be laid at its door. That is if you really care whether it rises or not, rather than this feel-good patronising patting on the head with a casual 'Ag shame'.

We cannot change history. We should not get chained to history. It is undeniable that other parts of the world have suffered as much or more yet moved on. It is misplaced and counterproductive to keep encouraging this behaviour. It ensures Africa's continued failure.

 

[BlindMelonChitlin]

These thugs prove again and again that the apartheid government was legit - they would do exactly the same given the opportunity. "We're no different to them"

 

[Jola]

We cannot change history. We should not get chained to history. It is undeniable that other parts of the world have suffered as much or more yet moved on. It is misplaced and counterproductive to keep encouraging this behaviour. It ensures Africa's continued failure.

A lot of truth to this. But it will not be acknowledged, and the fail will continue.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

We cannot change history. We should not get chained to history. It is undeniable that other parts of the world have suffered as much or more yet moved on. It is misplaced and counterproductive to keep encouraging this behaviour. It ensures Africa's continued failure.

I agree with a lot what you said above, but I do get a little riled up when a very selectively skewed view of history is brought up. And I responded in kind.

Will react exactly the same way if someone asserts that Africans are totally blameless wrt their condition. Even today, I think virtually all the finances need to be assigned to education and skills development as these problems will persevere indefinitely unless something is done to address the relative lack of skills in Africa as opposed to other parts of the world

 

[Jola]

It's not just the lack of skills, there is an attitude problem as well.

 

[ponder]

Even today, I think virtually all the finances need to be assigned to education and skills development as these problems will persevere indefinitely unless something is done to address the relative lack of skills in Africa as opposed to other parts of the world

Our education spend as a % of gdp is quite high, the corruption, mismanagement, incompetence & unions are not helping. You can throw more money at education but I doubt it's gonna have a big impact when we have all these underlying issues.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Our education spend as a % of gdp is quite high, the corruption, mismanagement, incompetence & unions are not helping. You can throw more money at education but I doubt it's gonna have a big impact when we have all these underlying issues.

What would you suggest as alternate? You have to persevere, as that is when you will have an electorate who will actually take a government to task.

It's a given that corruption , mismanagement and the general disrespect for the rule of law has to be dealt with, it will not be solved by throwing money at it.

By the way , I don't think a democracy is the best system for large leaps of developmental progress in a country. That is particular to benevolent dictatorial systems....but you typically don't get to pick your dictator

 

[Jola]

By the way , I don't think a democracy is the best system for large leaps of developmental progress in a country.

Yes, you need a benevolent dictator, but those are quite rare, and probably unknown in Africa.

 

[ponder]

What would you suggest as alternate?

By the way , I don't think a democracy is the best system for large leaps of developmental progress in a country. That particular

I don't really have an alternative as you are in a vicious cycle of despair here.

I wanted to say something along similar lines, ie colonisation by the UN or something like that with autocratic leadership where you cut out the cancer and educate/build over a 30-40yr period. This won't go down well though I suspect.

Some time back I was watching this interview with someone from china where they got raked over the coals for not being democratic, the person responded that china would have never been able to achieve it's growth under democracy, the country needed long term strategies to effect their growth, chopping & changing gov & policies every 5yrs would just hamper them.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

Yes, you need a benevolent dictator, but those are quite rare, and probably unknown in Africa.

Lol....I was driving so didn't complete my post. Have completed it now.

 

[Hamish McPanji]

I don't really have an alternative as you are in a vicious cycle of despair here.

I wanted to say something along similar lines, ie colonisation by the UN or something like that with autocratic leadership where you cut out the cancer and educate/build over a 30-40yr period. This won't go down well though I suspect.

Some time back I was watching this interview with someone from china where they got raked over the coals for not being democratic, the person responded that china would have never been able to achieve it's growth under democracy, the country needed long term strategies to effect their growth, chopping & changing gov & policies every 5yrs would just hamper them.

Colonisation by the UN would be the worst thing ever. DRC has large, permenant and independent UN presence there. And their behaviour there has me convinced that they will ensure they are there indefinitely. They are also the most corrupt organisation of them all.

The rule of law needs to be established here in SA first and foremost. If you break something, you pay for it. If you steal something you go to jail. Violence by citizens will be met with violence from law enforcement. And people might bitch about it, but I haven't seen the level of acceptable lawlessness that presides here anywhere else in the world.

As the general level of educated populance grows they will start using a better criteria for voting and engaging their issues

 

[Kilgore_Trout_Redux]

Our education spend as a % of gdp is quite high, the corruption, mismanagement, incompetence & unions are not helping. You can throw more money at education but I doubt it's gonna have a big impact when we have all these underlying issues.

I think the problem is worse than that. It boils down to Maslows Hierarchy of needs. Most of South Africa are barely surviving in tin shacks wondering where their next meal is coming from. Self actualization is a long way off.

Then I see rich, priveledged black students burning their universities down and think - nope, they are just broken.

 

[StevenC]

This is not a nice thread

The truth is ugly.

 

[Jola]

I think the problem is worse than that. It boils down to Maslows Hierarchy of needs. Most of South Africa are barely surviving in tin shacks wondering where their next meal is coming from. Self actualization is a long way off.

Then I see rich, priveledged black students burning their universities down and think - nope, they are just broken.

Yip

 

[ponder]

Colonisation by the UN would be the worst thing ever. DRC has large, permenant and independent UN presence there. And their behaviour there has me convinced that they will ensure they are there indefinitely. They are also the most corrupt organisation of them all.

That's why I said 'or something like that', I don't trust them as far as I can throw them.