Support for Israel policy

You are confusing hysteria induces propoganda with fact - Goebbels will be so proud

Calling Palestinian people "animals" is the height of Antisemitism if you know what a Semite is.

Paul, the Arabs do not even want the Palestinians, they are the Arab outcasts since ever! They call them worse names but at the moment the Arabs use them conveniently to get back at the Israelites!
 
No surprises here, the ANC and COSATU are just doing what the arab world generally does, using the Palestinians for political gain..
The local muslim community can contribute quite a few votes nextyear

Do you really believe we have so many muslims in this country, go read up on how few there are and that its just a minority religion in this country. A lot of muslims I know cannot vote as they are foreigners on work permits.
 
Paul, the Arabs do not even want the Palestinians, they are the Arab outcasts since ever! They call them worse names but at the moment the Arabs use them conveniently to get back at the Israelites!

And this makes you and marine1 feel better about yourselves, right?
Like the title of The Cranberries album "Everybody Else Is Doing It, so Why Can’t We?"

:rolleyes:
 
Rubbish, it is because at every turn when Israel tried for peace, these animals keep launching rockets into Israel and thus derail any peace. Its that simple.
As Gold Meir said: "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

marine1, I have to agree with Paul on this one - this is far from the case, or at best, a very simplified version of a very complex situation.

This is one of the reasons in my first post, that I made the distinction between ANC's view's on Israel being an "apartheid" state and calling for action based on that... as opposed to their building of settlements, which seems to be the biggest bone of contention and the greatest hinderance to peace at the current moment.

It's no secret that Israel continues to build settlements on Palestinian/Arab land, forcing Palestinians out of their homes too - even during the peace talks.
Sympathizing in this case with the Palestinians, I would find it very tough to negotiate with someone who won't even stop for a second to chat about other options.

If you don't believe me, check Ha'aretz from yesterday - 5000 new settlement units approved to appease the Israeli right-wing groups who are upset with Israel releasing some Pal/Arab prisoners who have been incarcerated since before the Oslo Accords.

In short the biggest problem I can see here is the Israeli right-wing, just as much as the Palestinian right-wing may want to push Israel into the sea.
 
Paul, the Arabs do not even want the Palestinians, they are the Arab outcasts since ever! They call them worse names but at the moment the Arabs use them conveniently to get back at the Israelites!
This point is made in my other posts in this thread -
he declaration of war in 1948 on Israel by the Arab League and a general thread of Arab aggression - which has generally been a dynastic feuding match as well - is a great cause for suffering by Palestinian people. Thus to blame Israel exclusively for the oppression of the Palestinian people is misguided ... Moreover if the context of Arab aggression and the dynastic feuding about 400 years of imperial bull**** can be seen to be festering out - again crap caused by various people underlying suffering by a persecuted ethnicity

Before anybody makes the mistake of thinking that the oppression of the Palestinian people by other Arabic ethnicities is unique and an illustration of barbarism of the region needs to consider the treatment of the Roma and the Jews and actually just about everybody in European historical and contemporary practice.

Ultimately I am firmly of the view that:
[1] Israel has an irrefutable right to exist as a sovereign territorial state both by continued existence at international law and its internal stability and conduct as a STS for a sufficient period of time (a fairly de facto argument).
[2] Palestinian national identity exists and should be respected and afforded the same deference as any other national identity (that is, if you deem national identity as grounds for a STS then Palestinian state must exist; but what national identity entitles is itself a debate on which I hold quite contrarian views)
[3] The Palestinians as a people are persecuted. More importantly Palestinian individuals are persecuted by virtue of their being Palestinians - subscribing to a Palestinian identity or being ascribed the identity. Israel as a STS participates in such persecution and has done so crafting legal instruments to segregate Palestinian people - such conduct is the crime against humanity of apartheid. The description of Israel as an apartheid state while often used loosely and in an inflammatory sense is for legal reasons correct. There are many governments in the world who have adopted measures which could attract the label (France immediately springs to mind) but, in the case of the handling of the Palestinians, Israel has a sufficient bundle of measures that must be dismantled to avoid the conclusion of being an apartheid state.
[4] Palestinians of different faiths (and "denominations" of faiths) can be readily identified and subsequently Palestinian identity is therefore fundamentally secular - most national identities are. (Quite importantly here is the fact that there are Jewish Palestinians who at the moment are cast as Israeli's despite not subscribing to an Israeli national identity.
[5] Israeli military aggression and right wing politics in Israel causes suffering and an undermining of civil liberties of both Israeli and Palestinians. However the infliction is asymmetrical and the Palestinians residing in refugee camps are the most severely affected. To this end certain politicians of Israel may, subject to jurisdiction concerns and issues, be liable for conviction on charges of crimes against humanity for apartheid and various war crimes committed against a civilian population.
[6] The government of the Republic of South Africa cannot treat the State of Israel any differently to other STS consequent upon its policies or actions concerning Palestine. The government of South Africa ought to treat STS according to the human rights behaviour of the STS in the aggregate and could classify STSs into tiers. Israel would be in quite an offending pool, together with Zimbabwe and China. It is however the duty of the South African government to oppose Israeli apartheid policies.
[7] The government of the Republic of South Africa in satisfaction of the right of self-determination must support Palestinian self-determination and to this end afford recognition to Palestinian institutions and causes.
 
SA Jews dismiss call to flee to Israel

South African Jews should emigrate to Israel as soon as possible because a pogrom here is “only a matter of time”, says former Israeli foreign minister and deputy prime minister Avigdor Lieberman.

He was responding to International Relations Minister Maite Nkoana-Mashabane saying South African ministers did not visit Israel and would not until the situation in that country had improved.

“Ministers of South Africa do not visit Israel currently. We have agreed to slow down and curtail senior leadership contact with that regime until things begin to look better.

“The struggle of the people of Palestine is our struggle,” Nkoana-Mashabane was reported as saying by Sapa.

Lieberman said the South African government had created an anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic atmosphere.

“I call on all Jews who still live there to come to Israel as soon as possible and without delay, before it is too late,” he wrote on his Facebook page.

The SA Jewish Board of Deputies and SA Zionist Federation said Lieberman’s comments were “alarmist and inflammatory”.

“It is misguided and irresponsible to assert that their consequences might be so extreme as to lead to actual pogroms against the Jewish community.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/sa-jews-dismiss-call-to-flee-to-israel-1.1602699#.UnoUPHBmjIU
 
Stop the BDS
AFRICAN CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATIC PARTY - Press Release
4 November 2013
ACDP National
Media Release
ACDP President - Rev KRJ Meshoe

ACDP calls on International Relations minister to stop deceiving public about events in Middle East

The ACDP is very disappointed by utterances attributed to the International Relations Minister, MaiteNkoanaMashabane, who was reported to have said that "Ministers of South Africa do not visit Israel currently. We have agreed to slow down and curtail senior leadership contact with that regime until things begin to look better."
It is hypocritical for the Minister to talk about the decision by the ANC government to curtail contact with Israel, while praising Iran for its "respect for human rights".
Most people in the free world, including in South Africa, would never agree with her that Iran has any respect for human rights. Which rights is she talking about, when, for example, Christians in some countries of the Middle East, including Iran, are persecuted and their right to worship freely is often severely restricted?
The ACDP calls on the International Relations to stop deceiving the public about events in the Middle East and rather involve her government in attempts to mediate a peaceful resolution to challenges facing both Israel and Palestine.
Trying to demonise Israel will never promote peace in the region, but will increase tensions that already exist between Israel and Palestine.

For more information please email: [email protected]
 
you misunderstand the geopolitics at play. The State of Palestine was destroyed by the Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan, Israel etc ... seeking control and absorbing in territory as it suited them

There was never any "State Of Palestine". There was only ever the potential for such which was destroyed by Arab countries using palestinian people as pawns to destroy the newly formed state of Israel.



- the fuddy duddys of the forum should remember the United Arab Republic. The declaration of war in 1948 on Israel by the Arab League and a general thread of Arab aggression - which has generally been a dynastic feuding match as well - is a great cause for suffering by Palestinian people. Thus to blame Israel exclusively for the oppression of the Palestinian people is misguided but that simply does not justify the oppressive and apartheid policies of the Israeli government.

There are no 'apartheid' policies by the Israeli government, those Arabs that wished to become Israelis did, and now enjoy considerably more freedoms and far higher quality of life than they would in the surrounding Arabs states or Palestinian territories.

No country in the world extends citizens rights to non-citizens, it is totally beyond me why anybody should expect Israel to do so.

Moreover if the context of Arab aggression and the dynastic feuding about 400 years of imperial bull**** can be seen to be festering out - again crap caused by various people underlying suffering by a persecuted ethnicity. (Humanity weeps)

The reality is that the Palestinian people have a bad relationship with Israel because Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinian people with self-determination and the trappings of national identity instead seeing them as second class Arabs. The Palestinian people in turn see Israel as aggressors and so the cycle to violence starts off.

The Israelis don't care what class of Arab the Palestinians are, they're not Israeli.
 
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The apartheid state of Israel, really, what rubbish:wtf:

LOL. go explain this to Ghassan Alian, or should I say Colonel Ghassan Alian of the IDF, recently appointed Arab Israeli to be head commander of crack IDF Golani infantry brigade.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4445216,00.html

:D I am sop bored with the usual suspects who have never even set foot in Israel but yet claim to know how evil they are
 
:D I am sop bored with the usual suspects who have never even set foot in Israel but yet claim to know how evil they are

Bit of a pointless comment, have you ever been into North Korea or Iran?
 
Bit of a pointless comment, have you ever been into North Korea or Iran?

Are you really going to compare the 2 to Israel?
The same lot keep talking about the evil Israel, the apartheid Israel.
How the hell does that even remotely resonate with Iran or NK?
They could not be more different
 
Are you really going to compare the 2 to Israel?
The same lot keep talking about the evil Israel, the apartheid Israel.
How the hell does that even remotely resonate with Iran or NK?
They could not be more different

No but you seem to think you have to actually have visited somewhere to get an real impression of the place. I would imagine it difficult for you to view it from the Palestinian's point of view.
 
No but you seem to think you have to actually have visited somewhere to get an real impression of the place. I would imagine it difficult for you to view it from the Palestinian's point of view.

When you have the situation that is in Israel and her being surrounded by enemies, it pays to go and visit and see for yourself. It is anything but an Apartheid state.
NK and Iran....lol. They will kill you for opposing the gvt. Israel? No chance. Thats democracy.
They could not be further apart.
It does indeed pay you to go and see Israel and then tell me its an Apartheid state. What a crock of rubbish.
The amount of propaganda coming out from the Arabs and their allies is sickening
The ANC can stick it up their corrupt rear ends. Like they have a right to take any sort of moral high ground
 
When you have the situation that is in Israel and her being surrounded by enemies, it pays to go and visit and see for yourself. It is anything but an Apartheid state.
NK and Iran....lol. They will kill you for opposing the gvt. Israel? No chance. Thats democracy.
They could not be further apart.
It does indeed pay you to go and see Israel and then tell me its an Apartheid state. What a crock of rubbish.
The amount of propaganda coming out from the Arabs and their allies is sickening
The ANC can stick it up their corrupt rear ends. Like they have a right to take any sort of moral high ground

Yes, as a white South African I've had no issues travelling there, on both sides but neither of us really have any ideas about the checkpoints, treatment of people and movement restrictions. It's not a bed of roses on either side, the problem is Israel doing nothing to help the situation with the building of settlements etc.
 
There was never any "State Of Palestine". There was only ever the potential for such which was destroyed by Arab countries using palestinian people as pawns to destroy the newly formed state of Israel.
The ICJ and IIRC the Israeli Supreme Court have issued opinions which disagree; I am inclined to their opinion
- in fact if Israel is the successor to the mandate of Palestine and no Palestinian state had germane existence the right of return debacle would be simple as all persons in the territory would have acquired Israeli citizenship to hold the assumption against statelessness; this is a special dilemma which actually arises when the right to return issue is debated.

There are no 'apartheid' policies by the Israeli government, those Arabs that wished to become Israelis did, and now enjoy considerably more freedoms and far higher quality of life than they would in the surrounding Arabs states or Palestinian territories.
The West Bank Wall, the detention of persons disconnected with any criminal act and a citizenship policy that is as capricious as it is discriminatory all amount to a set of policies that have rightfully been condemned by Dugard and Falk in succession as the Special Rapporteur. Again absent pursuasive argument to the contrary I am inclined to accept Dugard and Falk's opinions supplemented by Jilani, Chinkin and Travers even if qualified by Goldstone.

So no I am afraid to defend the policies and practices of the government or military of Israel is to defy all evidence and to assemble an ideologically based fairy tale.
No country in the world extends citizens rights to non-citizens, it is totally beyond me why anybody should expect Israel to do so.

The Israelis don't care what class of Arab the Palestinians are, they're not Israeli.
Again on both counts you have presented a classic refusal to recognize the contradiction in your propositions: If the Palestinian people are not a people with a right to self determination then a right of return and the trappings of Israeli citizenship would apply to all people in the territory at the formation of Israel.

Finally the proposition that a person can be viewed as a second class citizen on the basis of not being a citizen of your own country flies in the face of international law - the principle of non-transmission of status impairment has been well established since the Atlantic slave trade and while such things should be redundant sadly it is not and the proposition currently upheld in all legal systems is that one state treats all persons of another state as being citizens of the same class regardless of internal discrimination that may arise.


The conduct of the Israeli government is inexcusable and frankly it needs to take heed of the words of one modern Israel's finest jurists:
Aharon Barak said:
This is the destiny of democracy, as not all means are acceptable to it, and not all practices employed by its enemies are open before it. Although a democracy must often fight with one hand tied behind its back, it nonetheless has the upper hand. Preserving the Rule of Law and recognition of an individual's liberty constitutes an important component in its understanding of security. At the end of the day, they strengthen its spirit and its strength and allow it to overcome its difficulties.
 
The ICJ and IIRC the Israeli Supreme Court have issued opinions which disagree; I am inclined to their opinion

It's a simple historical fact. There has never been a state of Palestine. Opinions, as ever, are overwhelmed with facts.

- in fact if Israel is the successor to the mandate of Palestine and no Palestinian state had germane existence the right of return debacle would be simple as all persons in the territory would have acquired Israeli citizenship to hold the assumption against statelessness; this is a special dilemma which actually arises when the right to return issue is debated.

Israel declared it's own existence in accordance with UN resolution 181. A Palestinian state could have declared it's existence at the same time.

Those that did not want Israeli citizenship voted with their feet, they left. Why should any right of return include something they so emphatically rejected?

The right to return is contingent, not on citizenship, but on the Palestinians ability to co-exist peacefully.


It's a simple historical fact. There has never been a state of Palestine.

The West Bank Wall, the detention of persons disconnected with any criminal act and a citizenship policy that is as capricious as it is discriminatory all amount to a set of policies that have rightfully been condemned by Dugard and Falk in succession as the Special Rapporteur. Again absent pursuasive argument to the contrary I am inclined to accept Dugard and Falk's opinions supplemented by Jilani, Chinkin and Travers even if qualified by Goldstone.

So no I am afraid to defend the policies and practices of the government or military of Israel is to defy all evidence and to assemble an ideologically based fairy tale.

Faux outrage that doesn't actually explain how Israel discriminates against it's own citizens.[
Again on both counts you have presented a classic refusal to recognize the contradiction in your propositions: If the Palestinian people are not a people with a right to self determination then a right of return and the trappings of Israeli citizenship would apply to all people in the territory at the formation of Israel.

That's a huge "If".

The argument falls apart on three points.

1 . UN Resolution 181 offered the Palestinian people exactly the same opportunity as it did the Israelis.

2. Arab Israelis do enjoy the trappings of Israeli citizenship.

3. Palestinians do not want to be Israelis, they which to supplant the Israeli state.

Now you may well argue that the Palestinian people have been denied the opportunity of statehood, but that denial wasn't orchestrated by Israel, but rather by the Arab nations of the region.

Finally the proposition that a person can be viewed as a second class citizen on the basis of not being a citizen of your own country flies in the face of international law - the principle of non-transmission of status impairment has been well established since the Atlantic slave trade and while such things should be redundant sadly it is not and the proposition currently upheld in all legal systems is that one state treats all persons of another state as being citizens of the same class regardless of internal discrimination that may arise.

Poppycock.

Non-Citizens, do not enjoy the same rights as citizens in any country. Sovereign states reserve the right to restrict access to territory, access to facilities, and access to office.

None the less, there is no question of Palestinians being second class citizens of Israel. They are NOT citizens of Israel.
 
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