The DB mounted surge protection will usually be a Class 2, sometimes a Class1&2 combined unit. The plug protectors are usually Class 3. Both have a role to play - if you have a strike close to the building there can be enough induced current in the building's wiring to damage equipment. In that case it has already bypassed the Class 2 in the DB. So a Class 2 in the DB is a really good idea, but unless the device is really close to the DB it may still be worthwhile to use Class 3 protection as well.
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The DB mounted surge protection will usually be a Class 2, sometimes a Class1&2 combined unit. The plug protectors are usually Class 3. Both have a role to play - if you have a strike close to the building there can be enough induced current in the building's wiring to damage equipment. In that case it has already bypassed the Class 2 in the DB. So a Class 2 in the DB is a really good idea, but unless the device is really close to the DB it may still be worthwhile to use Class 3 protection as well.
AlphaJohn
Honorary Master
Class is only about human safety issues. It says nothing about protection.
Protection is only defined by an answer to this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? How many joules does that protector claim to 'block' or 'absorb'? Any answer that does not discuss specification numbers is always best considered a scam.
How does a 2 cm protector part in that plug-in protector 'block' what three kilometers of sky cannot? A damning question that only informed consumers ask.
How does its tiny thousand joules 'absorb' a surge that can be hundreds of thousands of joules? Is it a protector or a profit center?
Something completely different and unrelated is also called a surge protector. But this does not foolishly 'block' or 'absorb' anything. Instead it does what even Ben Franklin demonstrated over 250 years ago.
Lightning seeks earth ground. A best and destructive path is through a church steeple. So Franklin earthed a lightning rod. That rod does not do any protection. It only connects lightning to what all surges seek - earth ground. Now that path is non-destructively outside. Steeple is protected.
Lightning seeks earth ground. A best and destructive path is through household appliances. Informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector. That protector does not do any protection. It only connects lightning (and other surges) to what all surges seek - earth ground. Now that path is non-destructively outside. All household appliances and tiny joule strip protectors are protected.
Plug-in protectors have such tiny joules as to become a potential fire. Those must connect more than 20 meters from a main breaker box and earth ground. To be protecting only from surges too tiny to overwhelm what is superior protection already inside all electronics. If connected too close to earth ground, then "this can happen".
Worse those tiny joule protectors can sometimes compromise (bypass) what is superior protection inside appliances.
Effective protector must be at the service entrance to make an essential low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth ground electrodes. Only then are all appliances protected - including less robust plug-in protectors. Effective protectors are only connecting devices to what does all protection.
Class is only about human safety; not about appliance safety. Only effective protectors can connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to earthing electrodes. Only then is a surge not anywhere inside. If any one appliance must be protected, then every household appliance needs that protection.
wingnut771
Honorary Master
link?
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Always a good idea to implement all three. Not a good idea to implement I and II in the same unit.
The problem is the most effective place to implement Class I is on the incoming feed at the meter box, which is nigh on impossible to get the Council to agree to.
What I did when I had the chance was to feed the incoming power into a DB on the OUTSIDE of my home, and there Installed Class I protection gear and provided for proper decent earth.
The ones normally under your control are Class II in the DB and Class III on all appliances you are wanting to provide added protection for.
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Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Does your setup plot the frequency as well as the voltage by any chance?
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Like all things, lightning protection, surge protection is continually being revised as more is understood about what is required to protect people, buildings and equipment. There have been some very interesting new developments in this field.
I suggest you do not entertain that Westom character as he will drive you crazy with all sorts comments.YB
There are some really interesting and very informative documents available that are tied back to the BS(British), IEC and US standards.
Some of them are rather complicated to read but with a bit of patience at least the salient points will become clear.
What is pretty clear though is for a country that experiences some of the highest incidences of lightning strikes in the World, most private homes are woefully unprotected from both a lightning protection point as well as from surge protection.
If you want, I can post some of the links available. There are at least two specialist companies in SA.{Pontins - that has been around for many years and the one I am most familiar with} and DEHN.
There may be more.
As to who supplies real quality Class III stuff, it is Clearline.
Ellies does not come close to being worth anything - it is mostly just for show.
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AlphaJohn
Honorary Master
Sadly not. V W A only
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Lesson 1: Protect the family joules at all costs
All protection (even the newest products) are based in the same concepts that did protection over 100 years ago. The many 'new products' that claim cures are also called hooey. One classic example is Early Streamer Emission devices. Even series mode filters are now promoted as if some new miracle solution.
All protection (today and even when Franklin did it) connects potentially destructive currents to earth. Without damage. Either that current is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Or it is outside safely connected to earth on a path that means no damage. Effective solutions means nobody even knew a surge existed - today and 100 years ago.
Some want to believe a new magic box is a major innovation. The naive automatically believe such lies.
Effective solutions always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? That answer only exists when a potentially destructive current connects harmlessly on a path that is no where inside. Any 'new development' that does not do that is and always was a scam.
"Class" is only about human safety. It says nothing about appliance safety. Appliance safety is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed. Effective products that do that (for less money) are, at minimum, rated for 50,000 amps.
All protection (today and even when Franklin did it) connects potentially destructive currents to earth. Without damage. Either that current is inside hunting for earth destructively via appliances. Or it is outside safely connected to earth on a path that means no damage. Effective solutions means nobody even knew a surge existed - today and 100 years ago.
Some want to believe a new magic box is a major innovation. The naive automatically believe such lies.
Effective solutions always answer this question. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate? That answer only exists when a potentially destructive current connects harmlessly on a path that is no where inside. Any 'new development' that does not do that is and always was a scam.
"Class" is only about human safety. It says nothing about appliance safety. Appliance safety is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are absorbed. Effective products that do that (for less money) are, at minimum, rated for 50,000 amps.
wingnut771
Honorary Master
This is the second time I'm asking for a link to this device so I know what to look for.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
He won't respond except with the same ol' stuff about the guy with the kite.
Here are two references that will answer most questions but will take some thorough reading.
These are pretty new references that encompass just about all the standards available.
As to why we need protection here is a pic out of one of the references showing the situation in SA. there are much more accurate documents and maps available for SA.
We are in a far more perilous situation than most countries in the northern hemisphere.
The files are too large to attach so the links are:
For the PV guys with all that expensive stuff on your roof and the added exposure you now have to all the electronics:
ScottulusMaximus
Honorary Master
Please don't engage him...
You'll be covering your house in gold leaf and earth spiking with a unicorn horn after his posts.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Ja very true. One can get very paranoid as well.
But, there are some simple rules. (which of course many break with impunity, and then complain bitterly when their toys get damaged).
1. UNPLUG your toys when the thunder god comes to visit. It is by far the cheapest and simplest protection going.
2. INSTALL what you are able to --- Class II in the DB, and Class III on all toys.
3. DON'T stick that RAIN or LTE terminal on the top of a high pole on your chimney! Make sure the mast is protected with an earth spike at the top and the goodies are at least 1 m below the top of the spike.
4. EARTH that mast with a proper 16 mmsq copper conductor connected to an earth rod at least 3 m long knocked into the ground right below the mast, properly bonded to the down conductor.
5. Preferably install ALL antennas and dishes BELOW roof height under the eaves if you are able. Height plays a zero role in improving a satellite link so there is no need except to clear local obstacles to go high up on a structure.
6. Find out where your home earth is and have it checked. If you are in a complex? Well, that could be quite a problem for you given the crappy workmanship that we see daily from property developers.
But, there are some simple rules. (which of course many break with impunity, and then complain bitterly when their toys get damaged).
1. UNPLUG your toys when the thunder god comes to visit. It is by far the cheapest and simplest protection going.
2. INSTALL what you are able to --- Class II in the DB, and Class III on all toys.
3. DON'T stick that RAIN or LTE terminal on the top of a high pole on your chimney! Make sure the mast is protected with an earth spike at the top and the goodies are at least 1 m below the top of the spike.
4. EARTH that mast with a proper 16 mmsq copper conductor connected to an earth rod at least 3 m long knocked into the ground right below the mast, properly bonded to the down conductor.
5. Preferably install ALL antennas and dishes BELOW roof height under the eaves if you are able. Height plays a zero role in improving a satellite link so there is no need except to clear local obstacles to go high up on a structure.
6. Find out where your home earth is and have it checked. If you are in a complex? Well, that could be quite a problem for you given the crappy workmanship that we see daily from property developers.
Go to any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for their 'whole house' protector. A technology so old and so well proven as to sell as a commodity. Confirm that it is rated at least 50,000 amps. Then direct lightning strikes (typically 20,000 amps) do not even damage that protector.
A 'whole house' protector must have a dedicated earthing wire. To be effective, that ground wire must make a low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to earth ground electrodes. Since no protector does protection. Not one. Effective protectors are only connecting devices to another item that does all protection. Single point earth ground. That is where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. That requires most attention. Verify that ground wire exists.
Provided by serious electrical manufacturers including Siemens, ABB, Schneider Electric, etc.
Protectors are only simple science. It must be large enough to conduct up to 50,000 amp transients. Earth ground must be connected to and properly sized so that a surge current has a best (and not destructive) path to distant earthborne charges. By not being anywhere inside.
wingnut771
Honorary Master
krieg
Expert Member
Are you trying to say earth spike?
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Ja he is.
But this not that 1.5 m rod typically sold for a DSTV antenna installation. It comprises a total earthing or grounding system installed.
The new regs suggest that for most areas in SA, the minimum required is one 5 m long earth rod because of the rather poor earth resistivity measured just about everywhere.
BUT, and this is increasingly becoming a problem that goes hand in hand with the shocking (pun intended) bad maintenance we see to electrical distribution infrastructure, that your costly "whole house protection" system Class I standard, could become the ONLY viable system in your neighbourhood and YOU will then find yourself attracting lots of problems.
There are generally two standards available in SA, 40kA, and 100kA for household use.
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Nasty Geoff.D. apparently cannot read. Only tells us who to hate. Ironically everything I have posted comes from manufacturers that he cites such as Erico and Dehn.
For example
Only Type 1 or Type 2 can make that low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection to single point earth ground.
If protection is properly implemented, the informed consumer need not unplug anything. If anything must be protected, then everything must be unplugged - furnace, clock radios, refrigerator, RCDs, dishwasher, central air, door bell, LED & CFL bulbs, smoke detectors. No informed consumer does anything so ridiculous. By simply doing what Erico and Dehn recommend, then everything is protected from destructive transients. Created by wind, linemen errors, tree rodents, utility switching, and lightning.
Somehow Geoff.D. knows in advance when these will happen.
He insults people. Then cites sources that support my recommendations. He, on the other hand, actually thinks unplugging a few items will protect all appliances. And that anyone can know before that stray car will create a surge. Unplugging is for people who only understand insults.
The most critical part of every protection system is an item that does all that protection. Single point earth ground. How to increase protection? Expand (upgrade) what does all protection.
Or learn from others in a venue where potential lightning damage is more frequent. Orange County's emergency response system constantly suffered damage. People who know this stuff only upgraded the most critical parts of every protection system: earth ground. A case study.
Effective protectors connect low impedance (ie less than 3 meters) to the earthing electrodes that do all protection. That Main Earthing Busbar in figures must connect low impedance to earth. Reality that Geoff.D. wants to deny (when his citations agree with this): effective protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Protection for everything (every second for every decade) is defined by that connection to and quality of single point earth ground. Those earthing electrodes (and not any safety grounds in receptacles) define all protection.
His citation, Dr Anthony Surtee, and myself have been saying what his citation says, almost word for word.
What creates the necessary conductivity and equipotential? Single point earth ground. What dissipates tens of thousands of amp currents into earth? Single point earth ground. What conducts that current to earth? A low impedance (ie less than 3 meter) connection either directly or through a 'whole house' protector. Then hundreds of thousands of joules are not anywhere inside threatening any appliances.
Why is only Geoff.D. so grouchy? Maybe because I put some numbers to what his citations state - that agree with everything I have posted.
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Pineapple Smurf
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Nailing a piece of rebar into the ground is not an efficient earth spike.
The law in the states reuires it to be 8 foot deep.
That's 2.4 metres
www.wikihow.com
The law in the states reuires it to be 8 foot deep.
That's 2.4 metres
How to Install Ground Rods: 11 Simple Steps (with Pictures)
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