Tankadins click here

Two things quick

1. I tried to point out before on these forums same worries about gear and talents in WoTLK.

Pala generates threat via spell damage atm. In WoTLK, most spells we cast will have a 7% effect of spell damage and a 7% of strenght (or attack power, cant remember).

Effectively this will allow us to wear warrior gear and still generate high amounts of threat based on warriors gear instead of having pala gear. But the mana issue does spring to mind, as 2 spells and we will be oom.

2. What makes a pala an effective tank?

AOE damage, we are nr 1 aoe tanks. Having said that, we also do fairly well on single target threat, where my pala eases into 1300TPS on some fights yet still has to see SSC.

Because of the nature of the different fights, pala tanks split into 2 grps. Aoe tanks and MT. AOE tanks concentrate on having higher dodge and parry (8 blocks every 8 seconds tanking 5-6 mobs at a time gets used up quick and puts u in danger). Also if the mobs hit for 4 k, and ur block ratine is 700, u still get whacked for 3.3k, tanking 5-6 mobs can be very sore if they keep whacking and u keep blocking. MT palas have higher block in order to p*** the bosses off more and generate extra aggro.

You wanna build a tank before WoTLK comes out:

1. Def rating of 490 (with def talent points)
2. Avoidance of 102.4%
3. Spell damage of minimum 250 (Kara entry level for a Kara entry guild)
4. Stack up on Stamina and Dodge, chances are u will always run with a warrior or a druid and be made to tank adds.

If you have problems with aggro, gimmie a shout, we can work through ur rotations etc.

Link to my pala
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bronze+Dragonflight&n=Timken
 
Thats why any worthy Tankadin has a couple of tanks sets and not just one generic. ;)
 
gimme a break guys i only started this char end may :PP

I'll get some sets going soon i reckon, problem is my guild is not even at gruuls yet and i have NO idea where i am going to get some bloody shoulders as pugging sucks and nightbane is SUCH a pain in my guild lol.

Are the ZA shoulders from timed chest no.1 better than T4?
 
Yes and no....If my memory serves you gain a boatload of Block % and lose about 2% dodge. So Nice for a threat set but a little less nice for an evasion set :)
 
@Dusk

I'm running a Pally tank in SSC atm, and with only one piece of T4 (the gloves) I'm sitting at a comfortable 4500 mana. All my other gear has no int on it whatsoever, and the only time I ever have any mana issues is when I off-tank. And generally when you off tank you don't need to worry so much about avoidance, so you can stack gear that just has defense and int if you really want :D

All other times Spiritual Attunement gives me back more mana than I know what to do with :)

If you're really having problems though, always remember to carry mana pots with you, and maybe downrank Holy Shield to rank 1, which has the same effect but uses less mana :)

I can understand Blizzard's reasoning in this, because as paladins we need to gear for more stats than warriors (the basic avoidance, defense, hit, spell hit, stamina, spell damage, int) which means that gear point distribution leaves us with far less health at the end of the day, thereby forcing people to drop pallies as MT from harder hitting bosses. This way we can gear like a warrior without gimping on threat output. I forsee a lot of angry warriors in the expansion :D


@Timken

I disagree with your comments there mate. In fact, in my opinion its quite the opposite. AoE tanks concentrate on block and spell damage, while MTs concentrate on dodge and parry.

As I explained in my post, when you're taking on a lot of trash (think murloc adds on Morogrim in SSC, anything in Kara, or the Hyjal trash) and they're all hitting you, a high block rate means more threat generated back via Holy Shield and Sanctuary (if you have 2 pallies in the group, otherwise you should have Kings ), meaning you can hold aggro on them much easier. Thats why the T5 set is so good for AoE tanking...lots of block rating :)

On a boss however, blocking 700 - 1000 or so of the 12K that Prince deals in phase 2 in rather insignificant, and you'd be better off avoiding the damage completely. Hence the T6 set having so much pure dodge and parry :)


@Nickd

Yes, the ZA shoulders are far superior for a MT IMO. They have more defense, block rating, block value, stam, and 2 blue sockets for even more stam (plus the bonus), and armour, but no int or spell damage. But int is not really needed, and spell damage can be compensated for with a good weapon, buffing food, an adept's elixer and some wizard oil :)


For those of you looking for an epic tank gear progression list, check out this link at Maintankadin
 
Moonfruit said:
@Timken

I disagree with your comments there mate. In fact, in my opinion its quite the opposite. AoE tanks concentrate on block and spell damage, while MTs concentrate on dodge and parry.
Click to expand...

Might be possible and true what you are saying, however do the math.

When I say aoe tanking, I mean 4 mobs or more on you. Each mob say theoretically has a 2 sec swing, and hits u 3000k damage mitigated. Ur shield lasts 8 blocks, if u have it improved.

So

Each mob will hit you 4 times in the time frame of your holy shield cooldown tanking 4 mobs with 25% + 30% chance to block, u will have 16 swings at u, of which you should block every second one or more. This leaves you open in the closing seconds on your cooldown for crushability, as the last second u no longer can achieve 102.4% and take extra damage.Also leaves you open to high burst damage at the end of ur holy shield spell while you are waiting for a cooldown. Your aoe damage scales with all the mobs nearly equally, and if grp follows kill order, by the time they get to 2nd target, u have way over 30k threat on it so nuking is possible.

Why block on boss?

Block generates extra aggro, you have 8 charges with ur cooldown and only one mob taking a bite out of the charges. Yes you do get hit hard, but for a good reason. Gives you an immense mana back on each boss, making it possible to spam all you spells and ease into 1600TPS without worry about mana.

That is my understanding of the two differences between the tanking as a pala. Boss tanking pala has a huge block rating as well as block value similar to warrior, so damage wise they take similar.

Where does my experience come from?

Curator. 1600TPS opening and sustained pushing to 2500TPS in its evocation state with trinkets popped

ZA - Egg boss, easily take all the eggs to hatch in one go without taking extensive damage.

MH - Can last about 20 seconds tanking all trash solo without any heals.

Not fighting with you, just stating from my experience on what is possible and what I have done.
 
Last edited:
I'm not trying to fight either, it just seems to me you've been given the wrong information. Trash mobs (i.e. anything that doesn't have a level ??, i.e. 73) can NOT crush you at level 70 (there are a few exceptions, but not that many to make it important). Only mobs 3 levels higher or more can. That being said, blocking on trash is used to increase threat output and reduce damage, so the higher block rating and value you have the better. And if you really need some extra mitigation and threat output while your HS is on cooldown, just keep Sanctuary up.

Why block on a boss? Not for damage reduction or the small amount of threat you put out, but to prevent being crushed. And the faster the boss hits, the more effective we become when compared to a warrior (8 charges/10 secs vs. 2 charges/5 secs).

That's the way I understand paladin tanking to work, both from personal experience and from a wealth of information I've read at sites like WoWWiki and Maintankadin :)
 
I would agree with Moonfruit

Block is percentage wise a far less avoidance stat than a threat stat.

If a boss deals 4k dmg a blow before block mitigation

In a string of 100 blows your holy shield would grant 80 blocks. Assuming your block value is ~600 you would absorb 48000damage through blocking ( assuming an 80% uptime on holy shield )

If you dump a 12% block chance in favor of dodge 2%

You would block 7200dmg less but avoid 8k damage purely from dodge

These numbers aren't directly quoted or entirely accurate concerning uptimes etc. However it does simply show block vs dodge

As for MH trash -
i'd love to see how much HP you have to absorb 4.2k shadowbolts x 3 ( a gentle estimate for Kaz'rogal trash ) while 6 abominations are smacking you and survive 20seconds with no heals. The math doesnt add up. Shadowbolts cannot be negated by armor nor blocked - and paladins do not have spell reflect either. Admittedly waves where there are only 6 ghouls or nerubians hitting you like a marshmallow block is ofcourse great and you probably could survive 20 seconds. Any actual waves that have a caster and you'd be annihilated

Block is a nice stat to have,but point for point dodge and parry are by and by a maintanking stat,block is a soak/threat stat.


*The only mobs that really crush in trash is Guards when you're on your way to play poke-the-cube with magtheridon
 
Last edited:
so basically the verdict is this: (correct me if i am wrong)

Use holy shield on trash not for avoidance but for threat generation.
Use holy shield on bosses for avoidance in terms of crushing blows, but the more dodge the better?
 
Nickd said:
so basically the verdict is this: (correct me if i am wrong)

Use holy shield on trash not for avoidance but for threat generation.
Use holy shield on bosses for avoidance in terms of crushing blows, but the more dodge the better?
Click to expand...

Bingo bango
 
Nickd said:
so basically the verdict is this: (correct me if i am wrong)

Use holy shield on trash not for avoidance but for threat generation.
Use holy shield on bosses for avoidance in terms of crushing blows, but the more dodge the better?
Click to expand...

In a bit more detail...

Holy shield is used on trash for threat generation and additional damage mitigation, especially if you have a high block value set (I've seen a warrior solo a Fel Reaver in a BV set).

On bosses its used to reach the avoidance cap of 102.4% (helped along by the Libram at early stages) to prevent crushing blows, but once you reach that you start replacing block pieces with pure dodge pieces for your boss set.

Something like this:

7.9 block rating = 1% block
18.9 dodge rating = 1% dodge
25 agility = 1% dodge
31.5 parry rating = 1% parry

This means that to reach initial uncrushability, its easiest to stack block rating, and after that for every 1 block rating you remove you need to replace it with approximately 2.5 dodge rating or 4 parry rating.

You also need 490 defense at all times (485 for trash though), as well as as much stamina as you can.
 
My apologies to Moonfruit and Psywulf.

Over the last year I have been playing my pala to a great success with the principle I have listed above....however, your post made me hit the theory craft again and after a little research I have come up with this.

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21425-paladin_protection/

Scroll to AOE/Trash tank.

Soz guys, apologies again off paper and on theorycraft you guys seem to be right. But it doesnt mean that my theory doesnt work, I have very successfully been playing with that basic principle for the last year.

Also read, try to avoid going over 40% dodge avoidance as it is too high, and u will oom too easy on bosses.
 
Last edited:
No problem at all mate :)

The main reason why I'm playing my tankadin according to rules and regulations is because I read up all about the theory BEFORE I switched spec, while you seem to have done it the other way around. But as you said, there is no right or wrong, so if it works for you then by all means :)

As you mentioned about going OOM with too much dodge, thats exactly the reason why I prefer block to dodge on trash mobs, as I can concecrate all the time while still taking damage (thus getting mana back) and let the dps go all out on AoE without worrying about losing aggro :)
 
Timken said:
My apologies to Moonfruit and Psywulf.

Over the last year I have been playing my pala to a great success with the principle I have listed above....however, your post made me hit the theory craft again and after a little research I have come up with this.

http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t21425-paladin_protection/

Scroll to AOE/Trash tank.

Soz guys, apologies again off paper and on theorycraft you guys seem to be right. But it doesnt mean that my theory doesnt work, I have very successfully been playing with that basic principle for the last year.

Also read, try to avoid going over 40% dodge avoidance as it is too high, and u will oom too easy on bosses.
Click to expand...

Indeed no probs :)

Damage mitigation is damage mitigation no doubt. Just some forms are more effective than others :P

Hehe I laugh at our Pally MT in Hyjal...poor guy has to bring spare shields to handle all that block-mitigated dmg hehe. My job's far easier though for the moment,i'm the arms-specced reflect-tank these days :P

In T5/T6 i break over 28% dodge and thats perfectly fine for me

One other thing to note - don't kill dodge off either. Sunwell has a debuff nuking a huge chunk of your dodge off so if you do plan on invading that space soon keep some high dodge-gear
 
Sunwell Radiance is being removed in 3.0, to coincide with the new logarithmic scaling of mitigation stats.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X