Tanking For Pugs :(

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Petruz

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I am getting a bit tired of puggs last nigth i was doing the new instance MT
first run when great had resto druid healer and my self feral tank at last boss kael everyone died boss was 45% me and resto druid downed him alone battlerez was on cd great run was pug group.

My next group had a healer that let me die while his mana pool is 100% full
that really get to me i never blame healer but wtf 100% mana=he did not even try.We wiped till i had too repair bill was hectic ouch.

So i got nother group with dpsers that dont giv me time for agro after pull them nuke rigth away healer over heal on them and draws agro myself as bear tank it get really hard too keep more than 6 mobs on me if i dont get few sec head start need at least 3 sec two swipes it possible with my aoe agro bear thing but that has major cd omly use it as a oh **** bottun.

Well long story short i got blamed for bad agro keeping.
Really getting tired of tanking for pugs use to be alot of fun bad pug are
more than good ones.

Thinking of going ballance again being dps is alot less demanding or level my mage too 70.
Funny thing i i am in major guild with 170 lvl 70s but i never hear of guild runs.Only kara.
 
This is why most tanks only tank for their guild, and why most pug groups sit in LFG channel crying 'LF1M TANK' for sometimes hours at a time.

I also don't heal pug runs anymore. Getting whacked pulling heal aggro because of bad/breaking cc is hair-pullingly frustrating.
 
I'll go with Khanye on this one, Tanks only tank for Guild the reason is they progress together and have more or less the same gear range.

Problem with most Outland instances are that lvl 70 good geared people do the Daily instance and Daily Heroic. Now if I was doing the Daily instance and you just got to 70 and don't have very good raid gear for tanking, all I can do is spam SS as I will pull aggro off you like nothing :o

Same problem with the Tanks Being over geared, they tend to go into these instances only 1/2 geared, or they don't generate any rage because of their gear being so good.

If you do Pug, try and not PUG the Daily instance for that day, you will end up having a hard time tanking agains the DPS guys

Just my 2c
 
ouch, reading that hurt my brain!

but yes, i concur, tanks have it hard, warriors and dr00ds
 
Pitbull said:
I'll go with Khanye on this one, Tanks only tank for Guild the reason is they progress together and have more or less the same gear range.

Problem with most Outland instances are that lvl 70 good geared people do the Daily instance and Daily Heroic. Now if I was doing the Daily instance and you just got to 70 and don't have very good raid gear for tanking, all I can do is spam SS as I will pull aggro off you like nothing :o

Same problem with the Tanks Being over geared, they tend to go into these instances only 1/2 geared, or they don't generate any rage because of their gear being so good.

If you do Pug, try and not PUG the Daily instance for that day, you will end up having a hard time tanking agains the DPS guys

Just my 2c
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It was a normal and theres now way to pull agro off me not even the most geared dpsers can pull my 3 mobs of me only the ones that nuke the mobs before i do=agro on them=healer have too heal alot to save em=alot of agro on healer even more so cause no time to pull em off dpser in case of more than 5 elite mobs they need to go cording to dps order marks they dont.People always blame healer or tank NEVER dps even with epic geared he can healer can keep rogue alive as tank but hes gonne have to heal 3 times as much=more agro.

Over pulling happens too sometimes ive seen it but in good groups they give tank time too gain as much agro as they can before they nuke or have to heal him then you can survive some pretty bad pulls oven with no cc.

Like on last boss kael everyone was dead was me and healer had to take him down from 45% healthbut i have to add that resto druid was geared up.
 
Petruz said:
It was a normal and theres now way to pull agro off me not even the most geared dpsers can pull my 3 mobs of me only the ones that nuke the mobs before i do=agro on them=healer have too heal alot to save em=alot of agro on healer even more so cause no time to pull em off dpser in case of more than 5 elite mobs they need to go cording to dps order marks they dont.People always blame healer or tank NEVER dps even with epic geared he can healer can keep rogue alive as tank but hes gonne have to heal 3 times as much=more agro.

Over pulling happens too sometimes ive seen it but in good groups they give tank time too gain as much agro as they can before they nuke or have to heal him then you can survive some pretty bad pulls oven with no cc.

Like on last boss kael everyone was dead was me and healer had to take him down from 45% health but i have to add that resto druid was geared up.
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Petruz I think on the weekend we need to group together, I'll use a stop watch to see how long you can keep aggro before I take it off you ;) I bet you that it would take at most about 30 seconds on a boss fight if I really want to :)
 
Pitbull said:
Petruz I think on the weekend we need to group together, I'll use a stop watch to see how long you can keep aggro before I take it off you ;) I bet you that it would take at most about 30 seconds on a boss fight if I really want to :)
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I am game for that just tell me when on a boss battle NOBODY and i do MEAN NOBODY gets directly agro from boss maybe adds yes depends on the boss but your rogue will not take agro if you give me 6 sec with boss before you nuke.I always tell my party give me 3 sec with mob then nuke as hard as you can.
With 5 lacerates stacked up rupture taunt and fury fire even if you do manage by some merricle to get agro it will only be for like 1sec then i taunt it back to me.

But if you can pull that off ill be impressed.
The reason dpsers died on kael is the phoenix add they never moved out of fire healer was busy healing me believe me that healer tier 6 pulls ALOT more agro than any dpser.
Nobody had agro from kael.

But if you attack before me or before i at least got 2-3 shots in youll should be able to steal agro.

But i do believe a good dpser should also watch his agro.And if you dont dps in dps order too marks i tell healer not too heal you too let you die.

Some bosses dmg all around them no matter if i turn him away from group with his back facing them
that is how i see whats going on never tank with my back to group boss always have back too group=hes attensoin is focusd on me but stun and fear bosses ignore you once stunned and feared that can get complicated.
 
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Yeah part of being good DPS is Aggro management.

I can understand an Enhancement Shammy pulling aggro because they've got very spikey Damage but a Rogue should have an easy time letting you keep aggro.

Unfortunately no matter how well geared you are 60-69 when you hit 70 suddenly most of your gear sucks because the gear available is so much better.

I remember pre-BC when I hit 60 on my Rogue how much of a stunning realisation that was. 2 70's with a 3rd on the way I know what to expect :P

So far puging in Outland has been a rather painful endeavour.
I've had the stereotyped Huntard appearing in my group a fair amount (can't Trap, whines about loot, does crappy DPS)
The Ret-ard-adin (the DPS of a dead fish (95 DPS oO), refuses to heal if the healer dies)
The Tard-Tank (non-class specific. doesn't understand basic position, i.e don't tank a mob that fears near another group and either doesn't have the right gear or spec so the healer struggles)
The N00bLock. I seem to have an abundance of them. Constantly asks the dumbest question (what r sockets for? lulz)
Can't follow basic marks (Cross is SECOND target)
Can't CC (A Succy can do WHAT?)
Doesn't know the difference between Banish and Enslave (he's a Demon I can't Enslave him, it only works on Elementals....o my bad I read it wrong)

We went through 3 Locks in one BF run. I mean really, BF! it's frikkin easy as pie and yet people struggle

Needless to say my fiance laughs at me a lot.
 
TheShogun said:
Yeah part of being good DPS is Aggro management.

I can understand an Enhancement Shammy pulling aggro because they've got very spikey Damage but a Rogue should have an easy time letting you keep aggro.

Unfortunately no matter how well geared you are 60-69 when you hit 70 suddenly most of your gear sucks because the gear available is so much better.

I remember pre-BC when I hit 60 on my Rogue how much of a stunning realisation that was. 2 70's with a 3rd on the way I know what to expect :P

So far puging in Outland has been a rather painful endeavour.
I've had the stereotyped Huntard appearing in my group a fair amount (can't Trap, whines about loot, does crappy DPS)
The Ret-ard-adin (the DPS of a dead fish (95 DPS oO), refuses to heal if the healer dies)
The Tard-Tank (non-class specific. doesn't understand basic position, i.e don't tank a mob that fears near another group and either doesn't have the right gear or spec so the healer struggles)
The N00bLock. I seem to have an abundance of them. Constantly asks the dumbest question (what r sockets for? lulz)
Can't follow basic marks (Cross is SECOND target)
Can't CC (A Succy can do WHAT?)
Doesn't know the difference between Banish and Enslave (he's a Demon I can't Enslave him, it only works on Elementals....o my bad I read it wrong)

We went through 3 Locks in one BF run. I mean really, BF! it's frikkin easy as pie and yet people struggle

Needless to say my fiance laughs at me a lot.
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I really start to warry when i see my feral tank with wellfare s1 and a green staff and i know with rigth people in group my dps suck but i have out dpsed waroirs that join AS DPS oh yeah i am supose to tank in bear then these guys ar arms fury spec with full epics.Even out dpsed rogues locks mages you name it some people think if you join as dps you dont need to do much just come along for the ride.Then you end up wiping on boss with 2% health lol.

My bear will never out dps a dps class that know how too play not even close.But alot of people suck bad with shamies i dont really like having one in group they dont dps good in noob hands and die first.
 
Petruz said:
I really start to warry when i see my feral tank with wellfare s1 and a green staff and i know with rigth people in group my dps suck but i have out dpsed waroirs that join AS DPS oh yeah i am supose to tank in bear then these guys ar arms fury spec with full epics.Even out dpsed rogues locks mages you name it some people think if you join as dps you dont need to do much just come along for the ride.Then you end up wiping on boss with 2% health lol.

My bear will never out dps a dps class that know how too play not even close.But alot of people suck bad with shamies i dont really like having one in group they dont dps good in noob hands and die first.
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OMG enchancement shammies is the worst thing in a group for a tank :D
They rock at huge hits and if they have WFT the poor Tank needs to know his stuff as all Melee damage goes thru the roof :D

Enchancement Shammies FTW !!! I love them in my group .... cos I'm a Rogue :p
 
Pitbull said:
OMG enchancement shammies is the worst thing in a group for a tank :D
They rock at huge hits and if they have WFT the poor Tank needs to know his stuff as all Melee damage goes thru the roof :D

Enchancement Shammies FTW !!! I love them in my group .... cos I'm a Rogue :p
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Shamies must be hard too play cause 90% except for odd few that i have seen suck bad and they dont heal if healer dies one of my fiends is one the class is not bad he out dpses all and even heal when healers getting hard time keeping up and he still out dps ALL by far.
Dps meter DOES not tell you the tru value of players in group some people support in unseen ways like inervating healer thats oom helping with heals.
 
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Pitbull lvl your waroir tank too 70 do some tanking not dps waroir and youll see what its like also see who get blamed on wipes.
 
Petruz said:
Shamies must be hard too play cause 90% except for odd few that i have seen suck bad and they dont heal if healer dies one of my fiends is one the class is not bad he out dpses all and even heal when healers getting hard time keeping up and he still out dps ALL by far.
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They are rather hard to play.
Aggro management is harder then every other Melee DPS class and itemisation is a very delicate affair.

A good rule of thumb is to look at the Shaman's weapons. If he's using a 2 Slow weapons (2.50 or slower) then he's at least done some reading.
If he's using a Dagger with WF on it then kick him as fast as u can.

If you're tanking and u out dps a Rogue that Rogue is a complete moron or afk or dead. Replace him quickly.
 
Petruz said:
People always blame healer or tank NEVER dps
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Its easy to see when a DPS'er has done something wrong, Because they usually die in 2 secs when the boss turns on them. So they never have to be blamed. they just admit it.

Kael doesn't move and since he only throws fireballs and a flamestrike, Ranged DPS will never be able to really pull agro unless they are close up. The flamestrike is random so anyone can be targeted, its got nothing to do with agro but everyone HAS to get out or they will die, same for when the bird explodes on death. His Pyoblast HAS to be interupted in Heroic or say bye bye..

I also think though that Petruz and Shogan are very right with aggro. It might seem like people are never out DPS'ing you, but generally thats what DPS are watching all the time. Blow all your cooldowns right away, and any decently geared Lock, Shadow Priest, Rogue, or even druid, will pull aggro of any tank. The fact that they arn't pulling agro, could just mean that they are doing exactly what they are meant to do.... DPS below that critical range.

Last night KTM, and Omen didn't seem to work for everyone, so we all took it very slow to avoid wipes. The problem is when people are running damage meters and they all go "oh oh.. I need to be on top", Its easy to be on the top, but its also easy to be dead.

Sounds more like the group didn't get out of the fire or flew into the globes, Unless they died from Kael's hits. Its a PUG though, and remember pugs always know better than everyone else, even the top raiders on your server
 
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Kalvaer said:
Its easy to see when a DPS'er has done something wrong, Because they usually die in 2 secs when the boss turns on them. So they never have to be blamed. they just admit it.

Kael doesn't move and since he only throws fireballs and a flamestrike, Ranged DPS will never be able to really pull agro unless they are close up. The flamestrike is random so anyone can be targeted, its got nothing to do with agro but everyone HAS to get out or they will die, same for when the bird explodes on death. His Pyoblast HAS to be interupted in Heroic or say bye bye..

I also think though that Petruz and Shogan are very right with aggro. It might seem like people are never out DPS'ing you, but generally thats what DPS are watching all the time. Blow all your cooldowns right away, and any decently geared Lock, Shadow Priest, Rogue, or even druid, will pull aggro of any tank. The fact that they arn't pulling agro, could just mean that they are doing exactly what they are meant to do.... DPS below that critical range.

Last night KTM, and Omen didn't seem to work for everyone, so we all took it very slow to avoid wipes. The problem is when people are running damage meters and they all go "oh oh.. I need to be on top", Its easy to be on the top, but its also easy to be dead.

Sounds more like the group didn't get out of the fire or flew into the globes, Unless they died from Kael's hits. Its a PUG though, and remember pugs always know better than everyone else, even the top raiders on your server
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Funny thing is they all died before the flying and bubles started me and the healer had to drop him alone was fun.That resto druid was good.But like you said with dps when they pull or agro something they should not they are dead lol easy too see who messed up fast.

I would like too see pitbull dps with my pala friend so far nobody has betten him he beats lock rogues mages but we were pugging .
 
Petruz said:
Funny thing is they all died before the flying and bubles started me and the healer had to drop him alone was fun.That resto druid was good.But like you said with dps when they pull or agro something they should not they are dead lol easy too see who messed up fast.

I would like too see pitbull dps with my pala friend so far nobody has betten him he beats lock rogues mages but we were pugging .
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Some Pala's do IMBA DPS (AoE) damage, but once the gear starts getting to end game they're back with all the other Mixed classes. We'll have a group over the weekend :)
 
The new combat log is very easy to read and sort out so you can check quickly what killed them. If they died from the flamestrikes, or the bird.. they have nobody to blame but themselves.

My gear isn't the best, Its epic, just not T6 and I pull aggro from 99% of pugs tanks I run in from just spaming SS. Blow a cooldown and I start praying.

Not sure if your running an agro meter, But something like Omen might help (if they get it sorted out tonight) You can see very quickly if somebody is DPSing/Healing to hard and can ask them to bring it down a notch
 
Kalvaer said:
The new combat log is very easy to read and sort out so you can check quickly what killed them. If they died from the flamestrikes, or the bird.. they have nobody to blame but themselves.

My gear isn't the best, Its epic, just not T6 and I pull aggro from 99% of pugs tanks I run in from just spaming SS. Blow a cooldown and I start praying.

Not sure if your running an agro meter, But something like Omen might help (if they get it sorted out tonight) You can see very quickly if somebody is DPSing/Healing to hard and can ask them to bring it down a notch
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Combat spec is really more constant DPS, But I can pop Adrenelin Rush, SSx3, S&D, by that time my Mongoose x 2 Proc'd on both already my crit rate is very high. Then I still do an Evenom or Eviscate and I have aggro already and tanking my own mob. I have to really pace myself in normal Dailies with pugs. I end up tanking my own mob 90% of the time, That being the main target. I have to spam feint just to keep under the radar. But this is the Cookie Slicer build 19/42/00.

On Sub I get Aggro right of the bat, Shadowstep + crit Ambush = 4k + damage that is an instant aggro. And the reason I respec'd to Combat
 
I'm almost the same except I"ve changed my combat build to fit in fist weapons and didn't go with the generic. From the spread sheets I'm still higher than I would of been with swords, but thats due to my current gear. With the new Badge fists though, I might keep it that way, And even now I swop some of my blues back out sometimes as I can still hit harder with some of them depending on the mobs

I usually go with Rupture instead of Evis if I can on the mob at first and leave Evis/Even for the last burst. Also does damage but of course holds the agro down as well.
I know all the theory states the Ruptures do more DPS in long battles than Evis/Even, but still love seeing those huge crits blast through when they do from them :)
 
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