Teacher tortures, kills boy

[Phenom]

30/05/2008 14:08 - (SA)
Multan, Pakistan - A blind seven-year-old student at an Islamic school in eastern Pakistan has died after his teacher punished him for not learning the Qu'ran, police said on Friday.

Muhammad Atif was hung upside down from a ceiling fan and severely beaten by his teacher, Qari Ziauddin, at the seminary or madrassa in Vihari, near Lahore on Thursday, they said.

- News24

Firstly, Religious indoctrination, especially towards children, should have gone the way of the dinosaur, long, long time ago.
Secondly, All schools for minors(u/18) should be secular.
Thirdly, There shall be no religion forced on any people, EVER, ANYWHERE!

NOW, MAKE THIS THE LAW, IMMEDIATELY!!!

 

[Syndyre]

This is just sick, don't think it really comes down to religion though.

 

[feo]

Well looky here, Orangeman and his usual antics.

Everyone seems to be tolerant towards everyone else's religious beliefs (for the most part anyway) yet you still seem to harp on about the fact that the world should be secular.

 

[Syndyre]

Has this happened in a secular country before?

Some or other way, it almost always boils down to religion, or a persons bad mother, which, *again*, is also usually boils down to religious indoctrination, instead of a natural understanding the world.

Look at what happens to people in SA with no religious justification. Some people are just sick.

Well looky here, Orangeman and his usual antics.

Everyone seems to be tolerant towards everyone else's religious beliefs (for the most part anyway) yet you still seem to harp on about the fact that the world should be secular.

phenom = Orangeman?

Personally I think governments should be secular, if people want to be religious and set up religious institutions that's their choice though.

 

[feo]

phenom = Orangeman?

Yeah.

Personally I think governments should be secular, if people want to be religious and set up religious institutions that's their choice though.

Well, I think I'm just gonna restrict my attention to whether SCHOOLS should be religion-neutral since that's what the OP specifically mentioned.

I attended non-secular school i.e.a school that mixes religion and academics and it was BY FAR better than any other school I could go to.

 

[Syndyre]

Well, I think I'm just gonna restrict my attention to whether SCHOOLS should be religion-neutral since that's what the OP specifically mentioned.

I attended non-secular school i.e.a school that mixes religion and academics and it was BY FAR better than any other school I could go to.

I personally don't see anything wrong with religious schools as long as people also have the option of attending a secular school. Torture, abuse etc. is obviously banned at all schools so it shouldn't be allowed be they secular or religious.

 

[feo]

If you saw you neighbor abusing his child, will you just leave it like that, so that you create another generation of people like that? or will you have a say?

I'll have a say obviously, what's your point?

However, in the secular world, this should absolutely never be allowed. not only does it go against human rights, but also our foundation.


my way of doing things, is that we (secular nations) don't have the time or it will use too much of our means, for this to be for us to put right, but one thing we should do, is to not allow this(religious schools) to happen in our societies any more.

There's tons of religious schools around me, what exactly is the problem with religious schools for you?

BTW, are you in favour of Christian schools?

I personally don't see anything wrong with religious schools as long as people also have the option of attending a secular school. Torture, abuse etc. is obviously banned at all schools so it shouldn't be allowed be they secular or religious.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Syndyre]

Couldn't have said it better.

still think religion contributes a great deal to it, and by religion, it includes peoples freakish cultural customs. BTW, the population are predominantly religious in this country, and if it is not for being religious, they are extremely cultural, and not indivualistic.

also, in that(article) case, it was most likely just due to the strictness of religious teachings, being just so, or accidentally overplayed.


yes, and their choice, should not extend to minors, which did not yet have enough time to develop their own judgment of the world.

child indoctrination, is like zombification

If you use such a broad definition of religion its easy to say its a contributory factor. It may well be in some cases but that's the same logic that says violent games and movies should be banned etc.

Minors should be able to grow up and make their own choices, its not as if nobody ever strays from a religious upbringing. Its not as if we're advocating cults here.

 

[feo]

You claimed that my say was not valid, as "the whole world can't be secular", so that means that you should leave your neighbor alone, regardless if what he does is down right criminal.

you seem to be contradicting yourself.

Violence is wrong, whether you look at it from a secular point of view or a religious one, so no, I'm not contradicting myself, you just used a crap example, that's all.

But that is not really the same to the full extent, modern Catholic schools, have been acceptadly whimmed into Secularism, , and are predominately secular these days, it is hard to tell the difference between a 'Catholic school' and a ordinary secular one. There are even many non-catholics attending those schools, and some of which are predominately non-catholic, their studies and all are also the same as the secular ones.

feo, although, you know, i think Islamic schools are the most dangerous, this does not extend to Islamics alone, this extends to ALL religious indoctrination, from ANY religion/cult, and especially in schools, whereby the freedom of information of the child is nearly completely restrained.

Freedom of information restrained?

I can tell you that you're COMPLETELY wrong here. Speaking from 12 years experience in a religious school, there is no censorship of information. (well, at least not in the school that I went to)

 

[Syndyre]

I'm guessing you will review that, do you really think that a child born into a family which has already been religiously indoctrinated as children, would allow their children to have the freedom of going to an 'evil' secular school?

the child in most (almost all) cases, the child has absolutely no say here.

There is no option available to the child him/her self alone.

that preposition would make no difference. IMO

Maybe not but to make the assumption that all families who send their children to religious schools are indoctrinated etc. is quite radical. I just don't believe its the government's place to regulate people's thoughts which is ultimately what religion comes down to. As I said if people are being abused etc. that's obviously very different.

 

[WereRabbit]

Blame the person not the religion. Trust me there is no chapter in the Quran called How to hang children from ceiling fans. That school should have paid attention to the kind of teacher they hired, you cant tell me he just suddenly snapped and did that? He must have beaten a lot of kids and happily gotten away with it. Where were the other teachers? The ppl who are responsible for these kids?

Also I wouldnt want my child growing up and not knowing God and if I dont teach him (because he's too young and that would be forcing my choices on him according to you) and his school cant teach him (because secular is better according to you) then where will he learn it?

Will he just pick it up as he goes along? After, of course, 18 years of not knowing anything about it. Yeah, this will work because the world is so awesome and wholesome right now.

 

[Syndyre]

Freedom of information restrained?

I can tell you that you're COMPLETELY wrong here. Speaking from 12 years experience in a religious school, there is no censorship of information. (well, at least not in the school that I went to)

Yeah I think its a bit disingenuous to lump all non-secular schools together, there's a big difference between those that are more "mainstream" and those that are run by a crazy cult in Utah or a radical imam in Karachi.

If the argument is that all schools, religious or secular, be required to give a standard academic education alongside whatever else they did then I don't think you'd find too many people disagreeing.

 

[PeterCH]

- News24


NOW, MAKE THIS THE LAW, IMMEDIATELY!!!

YES! Let's replace all religious dictatorships with secular ones.

You know the Khmer Rouge did away with religion as you suggested,
we could introduce that too, the children get to shoot their teachers
and any adults who dare to worship/pray/or show any sign of
religious behaviour or thought.

Pol Pot would be proud! Onward to Marxism-Leninism!

 

[PeterCH]

Seriously anti-religious BULL_hit is just that, BS. First of all religions are not to blame for cruel or unreasonable behaviour of their people, it's people who twist these religions for their own benefit. If you look at world history you'll find MOST atrocities were not committed in the name of religion anyway but for various ideologies which benefited only the handful in power. I gave the perfect example of Cambodia/Kampuchea. We could even mention BURMA/MYANMAR or North Korea - I'm sure Kim Il is a Bible thumper.

Others, let's see Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Napoleon Bonaparte,
Genghis Khan etc.....

 

[PeterCH]

@PeterCH, of cause there has to be laws, but they should be found and taught objectively. As to marxism, that is a culture(like religion), not a wide open developing philosophy based on through research, as Secularism is.

Marxism is not a culture. It's a political ideology a completely secular political
ideology. It's extreme secularism. The most extreme forms was in Cambodia,
where all former culture was done away with, they wanted to bring everything to year ONE. Re-start their civilisation, all objectively mind you,
with the aid of Chinese Marxism/Stalinism. That country was previously Buddhist, and Buddhism is an ideology too,
not as strict as Christian religion.

 

[Syndyre]

*marxism, and stalism are not secular by my definition of the word, as secular is the seperation of religion and state, i include seperation from peoples cultural customs or any cults thereby too, while those cults don't. * the only instruction is that we should learn from our mistakes, not be naive, basic, combats of laws and philosophies are also welcome. we have to have the prospect to see(objectively and through the sciences) the world the way it is, the definition for secularism, is from the Latin word 'saecularis which means "world generation"

Isn't it a bit unrealistic to just make up your own definitions and expect others to follow them? You offer a very broad definition of religion and then a very narrow one for secularism, its not very consistent.

 

[Deenem]

The root of the problem is not religion or lack of religion.

The real root of problem is Fundementalism, people who believe their ideas and beliefs can't exist in the presense of competing beliefs.

Anyone who tries to force their beliefs (whether secular or non-secular, Marxist, Muslim or other) onto other people will cause those people to suffer.

So, if you're forcing me to live non-secular society because that's what *you* believe, then , morally , you are no better than the teacher hanging the kid from the ceiling.

 

[PeterCH]

Hitler was Christian, and most/all of the others were also a follower of a cult, and not a free belief, in an information society as todays.

don't know the others, but i also know that secularism is a work in progress, and much progress has been made, and will still be made, religion completely is stuck, like so two millennia ago.

Also that religion is has the goal of total totalitarism, and other options can't be found if one succeeds, while with secularism, their may also be errors, but the errors will work there way out and will be much smaller than the big picture, religion, can be one big total error.

Hitler was not a Christian. If anything Christianity teaches love and respect for all people, if you don't follow that you're not Christian. Secondly Hitler placed his aryan nation above everything else, while Christianity places Christ above everything else, you can't be a real Christian (one in deed) and put
nation and race above God, which is what Hitler did. Last time I checked
the Nazi salute was also not the sign of the Cross but "Heil Hitler".

Catholic Priests were some of the greatest victims of Nazi atrocities in WW2 Germany and were certainly some of the first people to be sent to the Death Camps in Nazi occupied territories (eg Poland). Do
yourself a favour before you turn worse than the most rabid of religious
fanatics, read up about the history of WW2 and the German occupation
of Eastern Europe (where the Germans were most cruel), educate yourself.

Plus some more stats for you, people murdered by Communists in
the last century:

20 million in the Soviet Union
65 million in the People's Republic of China
1 million in Vietnam
2 million in North Korea
2 million in Cambodia
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
150,000 in Latin America
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power.

I actually know what I'm talking about because I originate from Eastern Europe, I had first experience of Soviet run and styled policing of malcontents, ie people who wanted freedom and liberty. Where even
a mention of the opposition or any negative statement towards the
First Secretary would get you thrown in jail or beaten up by
the People's Police. People like you
who never experienced this cannot hope to understand what it's like to
live in a despotic totalitarian state like Soviet oppressed Eastern Europe
or North Korea or Fidel Castro's Cuba where atrocities commited by the
atheist secular regime far outweight any atrocities committed by the occasional religious freak, fanatic or cultist.

As far as I say, having lived in both democratic and totalitarian states, religion is far less evil than either
unopposed corporate capitalism or Bolshevik styled Marxist-Leninism, while
your own views of anti-religious paranoia reflect a type of despotic imposition
of your own opinions on others, sorry but the world won't let you do that.