Telkom creates criminals.

[RichardP]

A little true story for you.

There is a country in South America. A private company got hold of supplying water to this country. You could not even drink rain water without paying. It created a lot of 'criminals' (as you like to call them. I prefer the term victim), those 'criminals' then staged a coup de tat, and took over the country.

By your definition every single one of those people are criminals who dont have an excuse.

Not all laws are just and not all crimes unjust.

PS, before you get upset over this, bandwidth theft is bad, its wrong. But the problem exists because the current pricing module is designed for only 15% of the current population?

When I worked recently at a largish ISP about every single day we had one or two nigerians trying to commit fraud to get bandwidth. The whole time I was there I can only remember one case of bandwidth theft for torrents. The rest was nigerian internet cafe`s and other such foreign nationals who used the bandwidth for their voip services so every foreign national could phone home.

This is not limited to people just from africa. I remember whereby one account was used for voip services to phone Pakistan. In a matter of about 2 hours, over 200 calls had been placed to numbers in Pakistan with a stolen account.

I can see the point, but not to confuse 'Bandwidth Theft' with 'Account Theft' as I feel the motivation is different for each other. The Account theft aspect is to avoid detection, bandwidth theft is an entire different kettle of fish.

But blaming the costing of a product on the crime is not the answer. As there will *ALLWAYS* be people that will abuse it. What is resonable to you is totally unresonable to the man in a squatter camp. So the man in the squatter camp is has got a reason to steal? .. thats a double standard ..

Telkom is wrong, but its not the reason to be a criminal. The criminal bandwidth is there to expoit for personal gain.. nothing more. Telkom doesnt care less. The users are the only loosers in the equasion.

Comparing ADSL to *WATER* isnt really a fair comparision.

 

[w1z4rd]

I can see the point, but not to confuse 'Bandwidth Theft' with 'Account Theft' as I feel the motivation is different for each other. The Account theft aspect is to avoid detection, bandwidth theft is an entire different kettle of fish.

You cant avoid detection in either. SAIX records who uses what accounts.

But blaming the costing of a product on the crime is not the answer.

No, but its a step forward in finding the solution.

As there will *ALLWAYS* be people that will abuse it.

I know.

What is resonable to you is totally unresonable to the man in a squatter camp. So the man in the squatter camp is has got a reason to steal?
.. thats a double standard ..

You completely lost me there. Could you try rephrase this.

Telkom is wrong, but its not the reason to be a criminal.

Telkom is criminal. End of story. I dont care how many laws protect it. What its stealing from South Africa is full on evil.

The criminal bandwidth is there to expoit for personal gain.. nothing more.

You mean they are not doing this for the medical aid benefits?

Telkom doesnt care less. The users are the only loosers in the equasion.

The whole of South Africa looses out boet.

 

[RichardP]

What is resonable to you is totally unresonable to the man in a squatter camp. So the man in the squatter camp is has got a reason to steal?
.. thats a double standard ..

You completely lost me there. Could you try rephrase this.

I can afford electricity, but the man down the road cant. Is it justified that that the man down the road (victim) hooks himself up to a elctricity box and just takes? I can afford to pay so stealing electricity is WRONG for me?

Most south African people dont even have Telkom lines, so they could not care less what telkom charges. (altho they are paying in indirect fees)

The criminal bandwidth is there to expoit for personal gain.. nothing more.

You mean they are not doing this for the medical aid benefits?

You lost me there! The thief steals for 100% personal gain. If you buy from the said 'thief', then you are being exploited by this theif (victim?)

 

[w1z4rd]

I can afford electricity, but the man down the road cant. Is it justified that that the man down the road (victim) hooks himself up to a elctricity box and just takes?

So its okay for someone else to suffer as long as your are comfortable and can afford what you need? Thats um... moral?

I can afford to pay so stealing electricity is WRONG for me?

You would need to justify the need to break the law yourself. If you believe the law is unjust to you then chances are you will break it. If you believe the law is just to you chances are you wont break it unless you are a natural criminal.

Most south African people dont even have Telkom lines, so they could not care less what telkom charges. (altho they are paying in indirect fees)

Did you miss that report that said 85% of this country cant afford a telephone? I am really sure that if they could afford the R100 phone line rental they would complain about the charges.

You lost me there! The thief steals for 100% personal gain. If you buy from the said 'thief', then you are being exploited by this theif (victim?)

Yeah I lost you there didnt I. It was sarcasm.

Some people become criminals because thats in them to be criminal. Others become criminals out of necessity.

 

[savage]

So its okay for someone else to suffer as long as your are comfortable and can afford what you need? Thats um... moral?

Yes, it is. I worked and earned my money, I can give it out on what I desire.

I have NO obligation to help any one else. If I pay x for a service, I have a right to receive that service. If you can't afford to, or don't want to pay x for that same service - your' problem. You should not get the service, and I have NO obligation to HELP you to get that service.

DSL is a priviledge, not a right... If you can't afford it, what are you doing with it in the first place?

Now, back to the round by round action, RichardP vs. W1z4rd

 

[w1z4rd]

Yes, it is. I worked and earned my money, I can give it out on what I desire.

Its good to see compassion is still flourishing in humanity.

I have NO obligation to help any one else.

I was hoping to appeal to your sense of humanity to help others, but thats not so important to some. The money is.

If I pay x for a service, I have a right to receive that service. If you can't afford to, or don't want to pay x for that same service - your' problem. You should not get the service, and I have NO obligation to HELP you to get that service.

A gem for future generations to aspire to.

DSL is a priviledge, not a right... If you can't afford it, what are you doing with it in the first place?

A lot of people see Internet connectivity as a basic necessity these days. I am sure when electricity first came out it was also considered a luxury.

Now, back to the round by round action, RichardP vs. W1z4rd

PPS. I am not saying bandwidth theft is right. Its theft, but what Telkom is doing to this country is also theft.

 

[RichardP]

Did you miss that report that said 85% of this country cant afford a telephone? I am really sure that if they could afford the R100 phone line rental they would complain about the charges.

90% of South Africans cant afford a Car either... but I dont see that justifying car thefts. The same applies for Petrol, Electricity.

about 60% (dont know the numbers, but its alot) of the population have cell phones, but Telkom is cheaper than MTN/Vodacom/CellC on their call rates. You will afford *anything* you want to.... that goes for Beer, Smokes etc etc (a smoking habbit of 30 ciggies a day will cost you R600++ a month! more than TELKOM ADSL will cost you!, but I dont see consumer activism against smokes )

Some people become criminals because thats in them to be criminal. Others become criminals out of necessity.

I do agree, but it does not justify the act.

 

[w1z4rd]

about 60% (dont know the numbers, but its alot) of the population have cell phones, but Telkom is cheaper than MTN/Vodacom/CellC on their call rates.

Two words I have mentioned already "Line Rental"

You will afford *anything* you want to.... that goes for Beer, Smokes etc etc (a smoking habbit of 30 ciggies a day will cost you R600++ a month! more than TELKOM ADSL will cost you!, but I dont see consumer activism against smokes )

So I am rich, so I buy a pack of Pete Blues, I am poor I buy a pack of Yes. I am rich I use Telkom.. I am poor I use.... oh wait... theres no one I can afford.

I do agree, but it does not justify the act.

Do you believe the people of that South American nation were justified in breaking their countries laws?

 

[RichardP]

Two words I have mentioned already "Line Rental"

http://www.telkom.co.za/common/pricelist/prices/local/monthly_rental.html#prepaidfone
iii) PrepaidFone (Residential) R50.22 R57.25inc
You telling me that R57 is too much?

British Telecom charge £11 a month for Line rental.

So I am rich, so I buy a pack of Pete Blues, I am poor I buy a pack of Yes. I am rich I use Telkom.. I am poor I use.... oh wait... theres no one I can afford.

Are you arguing ADSL or Basic Telephony ? If its basic telephony, then why does MTN/Vodacom/CellC have such a high userbase compared to Telkom?

Do you believe the people of that South American nation were justified in breaking their countries laws?

Water is a life requirement, Telkom isnt. Comparing the two is not fair (even tho I hate telkom)

 

[KinsZA]

Does this mean mtn, vodacom, cellc and virgin mobile create cellphone theft ?

 

[edc]

How about you stop being an ass.

Your point being?

 

[javajulie]

I'm the first to agree that bandwidth is horrendously expensive in this country, but I don't believe it's creating a new class of criminals. If bandwidth were R1 a gig, you'd still have people stealing it. In countries without explicit bandwidth caps, there are still people who steal internet access from WiFi connections - just because it doesn't happen to cost the paying user more (at first glance, anyway) doesn't make it any less of a theft.

High costs might make more people consider theft, but low costs don't eliminate it. No matter how much -- or how little -- it costs, someone will always prefer stealing it rather than going through the trouble of getting it legitimately.

 

[edc]

If it is that cheap, R1 a gig then people will steal it since they don't believe they are hurting anyone. It is like stealing R1 from Microsoft. It is not material enough.