Testosterone treatment

[DramBuddy]

I've been going to the T Clinic in Jhb for about a year now and this is what I've learnt so far.

1. Before going to the T-clinic I was getting testosterone from my GP. Just taking depo in its own results in negative feedback, your body stops producing the building blocks for testosterone. The same building blocks are used for hair/bone/skin growth, have u noticed that your hair/nails is not growing as fast?
2. The male body needs estrogen but can't produce it. Testosterone gets converted into estrogen by the aromatasing effect of fat. You should be taking an aromatase inhibitor, males are more sensitive to the effects of estrogen which could amplify emotions/depression. I was prescribed Proviron(anabolic steroid) but was changed over to arimadex as an aromatase inhibitor.
3. I'm also taking, HCG, a pregnancy hormones. Given to males it stimulate testosterone production.
4. I'm also being supplied with Vitamin D, DHEA, Milk Thistle (it works). Don't do the stuff from dischem, it does not work, look for a compounding pharmacy.
5. Check your iron levels, testosterone increases your haemoglobin count (blood thickens) and your iron levels drop.
6. Liver function/cholesterol and testosterone and all related, check your numbers are in range.

The points above are something to listen for when you try and find a knowledgeable doctor, everyone's treatment is different

You will get lots of 'advice' to eat red meat, do strength training and have not sex, listen to them at your own peril, listen to your body and try and find a good doc. Do some pre-treatment tests and then follow-ups tests to see your progress. I went from 80 pmol/L to 944.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Once again, Thank you everyone for the responses, it really is appreciated.

I also posted on Reddit for additional advice (posted the blood work I had done and the results). The advice I have been giving is basically, Yes I fall into the lower normal Testosterone, but what they are flagging is that I have pretty high estrogen e2 and that this could be the bigger issue. I have been advised to get a full blood panel done so comparisons to various things can be made. Again, I am completely willing to do this but I need to find the right person to pull the trigger with.

After hours and hours of googling, the only person that seems to be a possibility is a guy called Grant Fourie (not sure if I can post a link here in case it comes across as advertising or something). I just don't know if he comes across as a "quack" or if he is actually legit.

I have got in contact with them and still can't figure out how I feel about him. From what the reception lady mailed to me, It sounds like the pricing off the bat is going to be :

• 3.5 - 4k for blood work
• First visit 2k
• Second visit 2k
• 3rd visit of half an hour 1k

That seems incredibly expensive, but again - If this guy is legit and would explore options / treatments I will happily hand the money over. I just worry This costs me close to 10grand (on top of all the other therapies / medications I have and still am trying) and he was a bull shitter...

Think I will make my decision tomorrow.

 

[envo]

Tablespoon of coconut oil, 3 times a day. Trust me.

 

[envo]

Tablespoon of coconut oil, 3 times a day. Trust me.

And this may be the cheapest and most sensible thing to do that gets your testosterone back on par

 

[3Gee]

I was in the same bandwagon....honestly its simply easier off running a 10 week self trial.

Purchase a vial of PGW brand Testosterone Cypionate, and inject 200mg a week, divided into every 3.5day shots. Inject subcutaneously into fat using an insulin needle\syringe (Dischem, brand is BD Microfine) which is tiny, thin and painless.

If after 4 weeks or so your libido rockets, ED is improved, fat melts, energy comes back etc you can put more effort into finding a doctor as you are confident you know where your issue lies.

Im going to probably get slammed for the above, but honestly there is no other easy and cheap option. Total cost will be around R400 for the Test and R50 for the syringes.

I still continue the above protocol without a doc for now as I feel more awesome than at 17! In the long run a knowledgeable doc who is on TRT himself is a must as various blood markers need to be monitored.

There is a group called "TRT and Hormone Optimization" on facebook and out of all the forums and groups, this is the one to join and get further info.

Worst advice to give anyone.

 

[throwawaysorry]

And this may be the cheapest and most sensible thing to do that gets your testosterone back on par

Unfortunately Don't think that is going to cut it for me, I follow a very strict Keto lifestyle that does include a good amount of coconut oil

 

[throwawaysorry]

Hi
Went through something similar, trusted the opinion of a non specialist and actually received treatment for 18 months (R2100 every 3 months!!) - Was a big mistake, and waste of money.

Trust you gut and get a specialist opinion.

Amazing endo in Somerset West: Dr Elmo Pretorius
(021) 840-7096

A proper hour consultation was nowhere near the amounts you mentioned- can’t remember but around the R1500 mark I think. You’d have to do bloodwork etc again- amazingly the GP left out two tick boxes critical to ruling out obvious causes, and like you said, the endo’s just know what they are doing.

Off the shots for two years, no issue at all. You did mention a few issues in OP, but as far as bloodwork etc is concerned- he’s the right person to help with it.

Good Luck!

Hey man I will check this Endo out shortly. This may sound silly - were you on TRT injections when you refer to injections? With regards to the Endo, What did he find that was was able to resolve your issues? My next worry is if I go and see an endo, and they complete the blood work - What are they actually able to do with it? I worry that I go and do the full blood panel, they interpret the results and then its kind of like, well you need to find someone that will treat you and pass me on to the next guy, who then wants to do his own blood tests.

Basically a bit concerned of getting passed around with everyone skirting the issue / finding a resolution to it if you know what I mean.

But I will 100% check out your suggestion, thank you.

 

[Nuke]

Tablespoon of coconut oil, 3 times a day. Trust me.

As positive as I am about coconut oil, unfortunately its not going to do much about T levels. If you don't have a deficiency(eg Zinc and Boron), no natural way really raises it much. Both are a pretty good idea to add, even if you are on HRT.

Worst advice to give anyone.

Not the worst, but incomplete. One reason why I don't think suggesting specific protocols is a very good idea on a forum. There is just too many thing to talk about and details that can get lost.
200mg/week will be way to much for many people, seems that many people reach 800-1000ng/dl on 100-120mg/week. Yes there is outliers like me who only get to 1000ng/dl with 220mg/week, but it will push others so 1800-2000ng/dl.
Also most people will aromatize alot on 200mg/week, especially if you have high E2 already. As good as E2 can be, it can be just as bad. I know there is people that believes that it doesn't matter, and I'm against aromatase inhibitors myself, it can get to high. Things like Progesterone, Boron, Zinc, Cialis can all lower it without adverse side effects, while having other positive effects as well.

 

[Ancalagon]

Once again, Thank you everyone for the responses, it really is appreciated.

I also posted on Reddit for additional advice (posted the blood work I had done and the results). The advice I have been giving is basically, Yes I fall into the lower normal Testosterone, but what they are flagging is that I have pretty high estrogen e2 and that this could be the bigger issue. I have been advised to get a full blood panel done so comparisons to various things can be made. Again, I am completely willing to do this but I need to find the right person to pull the trigger with.

After hours and hours of googling, the only person that seems to be a possibility is a guy called Grant Fourie (not sure if I can post a link here in case it comes across as advertising or something). I just don't know if he comes across as a "quack" or if he is actually legit.

I have got in contact with them and still can't figure out how I feel about him. From what the reception lady mailed to me, It sounds like the pricing off the bat is going to be :

• 3.5 - 4k for blood work
• First visit 2k
• Second visit 2k
• 3rd visit of half an hour 1k

That seems incredibly expensive, but again - If this guy is legit and would explore options / treatments I will happily hand the money over. I just worry This costs me close to 10grand (on top of all the other therapies / medications I have and still am trying) and he was a bull shitter...

Think I will make my decision tomorrow.

Personally I wouldn't trust anyone that wasn't a proper endo.

BUT you are right about two things - it could be expensive and you might not get the result you want.

First, the expensive part is the blood work. The doctors time is usually something like R2k for the first appointment which is not usually that long. Then your blood work could be as much as R8k - mine was. Follow up appointment then another R1.5k, even if they are just telling that they found nothing. Seriously.

I don't want to discourage you though, I think seeing an endo is the best approach. If you aren't massively obese and you are getting enough sleep and following a keto diet, then perhaps you need HRT.

Last things to consider though are stress and smoking. You mention you run your own business - what are your stress levels like?

 

[throwawaysorry]

Personally I wouldn't trust anyone that wasn't a proper endo.

BUT you are right about two things - it could be expensive and you might not get the result you want.

First, the expensive part is the blood work. The doctors time is usually something like R2k for the first appointment which is not usually that long. Then your blood work could be as much as R8k - mine was. Follow up appointment then another R1.5k, even if they are just telling that they found nothing. Seriously.

I don't want to discourage you though, I think seeing an endo is the best approach. If you aren't massively obese and you are getting enough sleep and following a keto diet, then perhaps you need HRT.

Last things to consider though are stress and smoking. You mention you run your own business - what are your stress levels like?

Thanks for the feedback! With regards to smoking and stress - Yes I do smoke, about 20 a day. Stress levels - Currently they are lower then they have been in a very long time. My business is in a place where it works and runs pretty smoothly. Due to my mental health issues that seem to be getting worse (despite all the dietary, physical and therapy) it is not growing, I find it incredibly hard to focus on anything properly so I am not taking / pursuing additional work.

I do get enough sleep (that is one of the few things that have improved) and the keto also helps. But again, this extreme level of anxiety and all the rest is not normal, not for how many years it has been going on for despite all the approaches I have taken and dedication to trying to improve all aspects of life.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Was Nebido injections - did my T levels increase? Yes. Did it cause other issues - some dangerous ones - blood thickness, kidney issues - yes, but luckily got to him before any permanent harm was done.

If there is a reason for some of the issues- i’d rather know and treat the cause - but injecting T to solve a low T count is not a long term solution In my personal opinion.

He’s very professional, doubt he’ll Just pass you on..

If you google his name - Somerset west you’ll get to his website.

Was the best decision to visit him. It was a bit of a process to rule out things in a logical way, there was a CT scan done, some follow up bloodwork, but wished I went to him on day 1 - would have saved me a lot of worry never mind money..
All the best.



af

Hey Bud, quick question if you don't mind...

What did your underlying issue turn out to be that they were able to resolve for you? I just tried calling this gent to book an appointment but they only open a bit later. Anyway I am still going to go ahead and make the appointment, just interested to see how they fixed your Low T without continuing TRT?

 

[Gozado]

I worry that I go and do the full blood panel, they interpret the results and then its kind of like, well you need to find someone that will treat you and pass me on to the next guy, who then wants to do his own blood tests.

Your blood test results belong to you. Never leave a doctor's practice without a copy of the results of any blood tests he/she had done. Better still, if the tests are done at a lab, insist that the results are mailed to you. Or ask how long it will take for the results to be ready, and pick them up again yourself.

You own them, they are your property, get a print-out, keep it in your file. Then, if you do need to go to another doctor, take those results along.

It's a good idea to keep any and all such results, so that any subsequent doctor [to whom you choose to show them] can look back and see the developments. And can see which results are perfectly fine, repeatedly, so you needn't bother testing those things again. In this way, you can save quite a lot of money and effort, by having only the more limited number of tests done, i.e. those that are more focussed on something specific, next time round.

 

[TheRealRaspeggi]

dont mess with your hormones brah, not a good idea

 

[envo]

As positive as I am about coconut oil, unfortunately its not going to do much about T levels. If you don't have a deficiency(eg Zinc and Boron), no natural way really raises it much. Both are a pretty good idea to add, even if you are on HRT.

it increases DHT, DHT functions the same as testoserone. It's not some kind of "natural remedy" or misleading. I'm not trying to push pills or potions or homeopathic bullshit that has side-effects. zinc/boron deficiency, why would you have one if your diet was balanced, or if you had a medical issue, were taking vitamin supplements (which 90% of people don't need anyway)

if you need someone to spend thousands on blood tests and specialists and pills and potions, I guess the reasoning you have for not even considering a tablespoon of coconut oil 3 x a day is ...well... profit. gratz. I'm sure there's a pill you can take to not die either, and be happier

 

[Nuke]

It actually lowers DHT by blocking 5-AR(in rats anyway). In the short term even a pharmaceutical 5-AR inhibitor like Finasteride may temporarily increase T, but it returns to normal as the body adjusts to homeostasis.

Also DHT does not function as a more potent kind of testosterone in the body, each has their own effects, even if both bind to the androgen receptor. Eg. DHT has no effect in skeletal muscle, because it get deactivated by the 3a-HSD enzyme before it can activate the receptor.

Funny thing is I take coconut cream in my coffee everyday, which works out to the same ballpark as 3 tablespoons of oil. T still came back on the low side, sorry.

Unfortunately I don't make any money from all of this. Currently its just to learn as much as I can and enhance myself. Maybe one day it will pay off. Working on the pill not to die, but not there yet. Currently just taking a few that slows some aging processes though.

 

[BTTB]

There is an easier option available now called Androgel.
Each Androgel 5g Sachet contains 50 mg of testosterone.
You apply the gel to your upper arms.
Its S5, you will need a prescription.

 

[throwawaysorry]

Just an update on this (in the event that anyone might be wondering), So I got hold of the Endo that @IguBu suggested to arrange an appointment. Initially they gave me a date for next month, but I got a call today saying there is an opening next week.

Very happy about that as I am reaching a very, very bad stage in my life where the anxiety is seriously starting to feel unmanageable. I had almost three days where I didn't have ANY respite. As backward as this sounds, I really do hope they find that there is in fact something very out of balance and that this is not all in my head. If it is somehow all in my head, well then I don't know, I am not sure what else I can change to try feel even remotely normal and able to function.

Anyway, I will keep you guys posted if anyone is interested.

 

[ShaunSA]

Anyway, I will keep you guys posted if anyone is interested.

Plenty of us are keeping tabs on this so please post updates

 

[throwawaysorry]

So, an update - Not the news I wanted. Unfortunately, the Endo didn't seem too interested in what I had to say. Before I went to see him, I printed out a full medical history, with a very detailed explanation of my past, both mentally and physically (didn’t even open it, when I asked him he said he would rather talk to me).



He basically put it down to me needing anti-depressants and a councillor. Very frustrating as on top of everything else, these are the things I am already doing and taking. Towards the end I requested that he gives me the codes for a full blood panel to be done so that I can rule out ANY other minerals / hormones that can be out of balance (on top of the ones already mentioned and he flat out refused and said I need to change my therapist).


I really don't understand, Me as an average layman can google the very simple things and see a pattern. Let’s take 2x physical effects and 1x blood result. I suffer from EXTREME night sweats without fail, with or without a blanket, waking up drenched in sweat, and do not get your average morning wood - at the age of 30. Basic blood test shows high E2. Those things alone (again never mind everything else) lead you to believe there is something wrong, yet not even willing to assist with further blood tests, never mind treating them.

I am not hoping for a magic bullet anymore, but at least a doctor willing to explore and rule out with evidence / results.

Oh well, guess I will keep on trying.

 

[cupcake]

So, an update - Not the news I wanted. Unfortunately, the Endo didn't seem too interested in what I had to say. Before I went to see him, I printed out a full medical history, with a very detailed explanation of my past, both mentally and physically (didn’t even open it, when I asked him he said he would rather talk to me).



He basically put it down to me needing anti-depressants and a councilor. Very frustrating as on top of everything else, these are the things I am already doing and taking. Towards the end, I requested that he gives me the codes for a full blood panel to be done so that I can rule out ANY other minerals/hormones that can be out of balance (on top of the ones already mentioned and he flat out refused and said I need to change my therapist).


I really don't understand, I as an average layman can google the very simple things and see a pattern. Let’s take 2x physical effects and 1x blood results. I suffer from EXTREME night sweats without fail, with or without a blanket, waking up drenched in sweat, and do not get your average morning wood - at the age of 30. Basic blood test shows high E2. Those things alone (again never mind everything else) lead you to believe there is something wrong, yet not even willing to assist with further blood tests, never mind treating them.

I am not hoping for a magic bullet anymore, but at least a doctor willing to explore and rule out with evidence/results.

Oh well, guess I will keep on trying.

Functional medicine Archives - Integrative Medicine

Go and see a Functional Doctor, there's a link above with a few in CT. They are trained to listen and look for the underlying cause of illness.

So much of this could be explained and improved by supplementing deficiencies, for example, Vitamin B, D, Zinc, Magnesium, and Iron in the right doses. You should be on a high-quality Omega 3 regardless.

I am always surprised that with all the verified research in the field of mental illness regarding supplements that doctors and in particular specialists are not considering this something to rule out first. There are very simple and relatively cheap blood tests for this stuff, as a layman, I find it bizarre!

If you have been on any type of medication long term it's highly likely that this is, in fact, the case because it is known to cause deficiencies.

Take care of the basics, and go from there! It's easy to get overwhelmed by too much information that is not applicable.