The Bitcoin Thread

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For anyone looking into cloud mining, please take 5 minutes to read the following (better formatting via the link)

Cloudmining 101

Everyone here is focused on ROI, hardly anyone seems to care if these companies are legit. The majority of cloudmining websites dont do any mining whatsoever. They pay out old customers via coinmixers from revenue that comes from recruiting new ones. This is the common definition of a ponzi scheme. No surprise, to keep the game going they usually heavily emphasize referrals and signature campaigns to make you do their dirty PR work.

Now why would you care if these companies are mining or not? All that matters is they pay out, right?
Wrong.

If the company (or more aptly: scammer) isnt mining, then its impossible on average for the investors to profit. Early investors might, but only at the expense of later ones and only if the ponzi can survive long enough. If no mining is going on, then there is nothing to generate those profits. So dont be fooled by low prices or high payouts. Ponzi miners will drop prices as low they need to keep the game going until one day they vanish.

And dont think because its been running for 10 months, that it has to be legit either. Unlike traditional ponzi's, mining ponzi's dont risk a bank run. You cant get your money out if you begin worrying, so they can run a fairly long time.

Take PBmining, they have been around since the beginning of 2014 and havent failed to pay so far. Does that prove its not a ponzi? Hardly. Based on their own stats, in the past month they sold ~1.5 PH worth of contracts. Good for around ~2200 BTC. During that same month they paid around 1600 BTC in dividends. A net profit of ~600 BTC or nearly a 1/4 of a million dollar. Just for running a website. So the fact they are still paying out doesnt prove they are legit, its actually far more likely they are still paying out because it maximizes their profits ( update: pbmning meanwhile collapsed: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=887871 qed.).

Of course that cant last. At some point the new sales will slow while the owed dividends keep going up. Once the latter becomes bigger than the former, guess what the anonymous operator will do? The same thing lunamine, coinsoncloud, pirate, bitcoin-trader and countless other (mining) ponzi's before did.



Be smart. Think before you invest. Dont trust *anyone* with a referral link in his signature.

Criteria to help you spot a cloud mining scam/ponzi.

1) No public mining address / no user selectable pool.
A cloud mining company that wont let you direct the hashrate to your pool of choosing and cant prove its actually mining bitcoins itself, is very likely a scam. There is no reason to hide mining address or not sign blocks. None.

2) No endorsement from any asic vendor
Asic vendors will gladly make a simple post to show the company in question is a significant customer of theirs. Its free advertisement for them and it helps their customer grow their business, so there is absolutely no reason they wouldnt. If a (cloud) mining company cant get any asic vendor to post such endorsement, you should assume they dont have any hardware to mine with.

3) No relevant pictures of their hardware and datacenter
There is no reason not to provide such pictures, except of course, if there is nothing to take pictures off. Mind you: pictures can be faked. Picture dont prove current ownership. So like all criteria listed here, by themselves they are by far insufficient proof.

4) Open ended IPO / fractional reverse mining risk
Unless the cloud mining is operated by the asic vendor himself, you can not sell an unlimited amount of hashrate. Hardware takes (usually a long) time to order, arrive and deploy. Any company that doesnt limit sales or make public how much hashrate they sold vs what they have (provably) deployed should be considered suspicious.

5) Referral programs and social networking
Referral programs, especially ones that pay almost 10%, are a huge red flag. The mining market is cut throat with razor thin margins. No real company can afford to pay 10% referrals on below market cloudmining prices. Referral programs almost always serve only to feed the ponzi and provide financial incentive to posters to lie about the true nature of the company. Never trust anyone with a referral link in their sig.

6) Anonymous operators
If the operators are hiding behind whoisguard, provide no provable identity and especially when, like in some cloudmining cases, they use demonstrably false ID or company registration information, you have to be nuts to trust them with your money.

7) No exit strategy
If you cant sell your position, you cant get your money out. Thats the ideal case for a ponzi and allows it to run for a long time.

8 ) Bonus point for "guaranteed profit"
So far, Ive only seen bitcoinmaker.ch do this. If anyone guarantees you a bitcoin denominated profit, and especially a 30+% one, you can be sure its a ponzi, all the other criteria become unimportant. There is no such thing as certain profit when it comes to mining, no one knows how the network will evolve, or what btc exchange rate will do. If anyone could somehow be certain of making a 30% profit, they wouldnt need your money (and they wouldnt give the profit to you).

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=878387
 
useful post this ^^^^

as I see these things very often, and always wonder if I invested my BTC someplace else, id make X

best bet so far, as keeper said, buy and store, as the price goes up and down,
youll earn (and lose) accordingly,

only thing is to predict it, like like investing in shares, only without the commisions and huge fees....
 
question to all the more experienced bitcoin guys,

how would one convert his BTC to USD online?

I mean with the rand at such a low level, Id love to capitalise on this fall,

my idea was to buy USD, and then convert it to rands later on, giving a very lovely profit in the meanwhile,


I think now is a excellent time to do this, as both BTC is high, and the Rand is extremely low and almost worthless,
anybody done something like this before?
 
question to all the more experienced bitcoin guys,

how would one convert his BTC to USD online?

I mean with the rand at such a low level, Id love to capitalise on this fall,

my idea was to buy USD, and then convert it to rands later on, giving a very lovely profit in the meanwhile,


I think now is a excellent time to do this, as both BTC is high, and the Rand is extremely low and almost worthless,
anybody done something like this before?

You would need a USD account somewhere.
 
thought about a paypal ccount, but what else is avalible?

saw this with a quick google, worth anything?

https://cex.io/bitcoin-calc/

The problem is primarily one of trust. BitCoin transactions are not reversible, so how can you be sure the person buying from you honours their end of the deal? PayPal transactions can be cancelled and you'd just be out of your BTC.

Western Union money transfers at least have the same risk at both ends of the transaction, but without a US bank account it would be converted to Rands by the bank anyway so you're not gaining anything. The person you're selling to (with USD, without BTC) could just buy online at any of the larger exchanges at considerably less risk to himself, so the only way he'd enter the transaction would be if he could make enough profit to justify the risk.

I'd just leave what I have in BTC myself. The local price will be kept in line through arbitrage by the people who do have USA and RSA bank accounts, so when you sell you're still getting more value thanks to the exchange rate.

One other thing people also have to be aware of: don't leave your BTC in an online wallet. Exchange accounts are only to be used for trading, the longer your BTC is out of your control the more likely it is to be stolen. Use a local wallet (I've got a paper one just because I think it's cool ;)) with a decent passphrase. See http://siliconangle.com/blog/2015/0...-arrested-in-u-k-over-theft-of-3700-bitcoins/ and http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/11/mtgox-founder-mark-karpeles-charged-with-embezzlement.html
 
But can you sell BTC for USD there - and where would you transfer the USD to? AFAIK you can't open a USD denominated Paypal account from South Africa and hold the balance in USD??

is there a specific law against it?

what about euros? isnt there something similar one could convert your BTC to?

what if I hold citizenship of a foreign county, would that make it easier to buy forex with?
Id love to capitize on the rands weakness with something solid overseas, sure a lot of people have the same idea right now......
 
nice idea,
bitcoin is open source, so nothing to stop this from happening.

Indeed - but it also be signaling that the mainstream are going to be taking bitcoin more seriously and the concept could well be the future.

Interesting times indeed.
 
Indeed - but it also be signaling that the mainstream are going to be taking bitcoin more seriously and the concept could well be the future.

Interesting times indeed.

I think is SA its gonna be something really great,
with the rand so devalued, BTC accounts are ideal, especially when you want to send cash to family, friends ect.....

only thing is its difficult to predict what BTC will do next.....
 
I think is SA its gonna be something really great,
with the rand so devalued, BTC accounts are ideal, especially when you want to send cash to family, friends ect.....

only thing is its difficult to predict what BTC will do next.....
Tank, once its confirmed that the guy who's house they executed a search warrant for Down Under this morning is the creator :) Apparently the oke has $400m worth of BTC

The problem with BTC is there's a finite amount available so people would rather hoard them like its a peace of gold, than to use it for actual trading.
 
only thing is its difficult to predict what BTC will do next.....

Yea.

I still don't get why a Bitcoin value of $420.00 / RoE R15.50 today can mean R7,000.00 ZAR price .... tomorrow $421.00 / RoE R15.50 can be R6,900.00 and the following day $419.00 / R14.00 can mean R7,300.00. There seems to be a little logic :/

One of the BitX support staff mentioned that one cannot simple Google and that ZAR is always 10-15% above the Bitcoin price. But right now it's below ...
 
Yea.

I still don't get why a Bitcoin value of $420.00 / RoE R15.50 today can mean R7,000.00 ZAR price .... tomorrow $421.00 / RoE R15.50 can be R6,900.00 and the following day $419.00 / R14.00 can mean R7,300.00. There seems to be a little logic :/

One of the BitX support staff mentioned that one cannot simple Google and that ZAR is always 10-15% above the Bitcoin price. But right now it's below ...

Don't know if your like me and watch the BTC price quite closely
Got bitcoins widget on my home screen,

Yesterday and today a lot of activity price boomerang between 6800 and 7300 in very short time, literally 10 min goes by and the price changes.

Waited for a lull, and cashed out, made a nice profit,
Initially invested 250 rands now got paid around 600 odd

So yes its gambling, but compared to stocks and shares, got paid instantly and only 1 fixed fee to withdraw, could have even brought directly on Takealot if I had something in mind.

Now if there was only a way to capitalize on the weak Rand and buy USD easily with bitcoins from za
 
Yea I do - and there is no pattern or ratio.

The whole day been sitting at around R7,150.00 ... spikes for 30 seconds a few minutes ago to R7,340 .... drops 30 seconds after that to R7,102 ... and now back at R7,150.00. That's in a space of 3 minutes. Both exchange and US$ are stable.
 
is there a specific law against it?

what about euros? isnt there something similar one could convert your BTC to?

what if I hold citizenship of a foreign county, would that make it easier to buy forex with?
Id love to capitize on the rands weakness with something solid overseas, sure a lot of people have the same idea right now......

There's no law against it, AFAIK. You can transfer up to R1m out without SARB clearance. The thing is that you require a dollar or euro denominated bank account in order to store those currencies, so you need to set one of those up which can be a mission to do from SA, unless you use a local bank account in those currencies. Be aware that the new global automatic tax reporting system is coming online so SARS will know what money you're putting in an offshore account, so you need to be able to account for it and prove that you've paid any tax on it.
 
Yea I do - and there is no pattern or ratio.

The whole day been sitting at around R7,150.00 ... spikes for 30 seconds a few minutes ago to R7,340 .... drops 30 seconds after that to R7,102 ... and now back at R7,150.00. That's in a space of 3 minutes. Both exchange and US$ are stable.

There are fewer trades on the local exchange so the price will tend to jump around a bit. On Bitx have you looked at the exchange screen - https://bitx.co/in/za/en/market#/XBTZAR? Shows you exactly what's going on. The quoted Rand price is whatever buyers and sellers last traded at on the local exchange, not a direct conversion of the USD price.
 
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There's no law against it, AFAIK. You can transfer up to R1m out without SARB clearance. The thing is that you require a dollar or euro denominated bank account in order to store those currencies, so you need to set one of those up which can be a mission to do from SA, unless you use a local bank account in those currencies. Be aware that the new global automatic tax reporting system is coming online so SARS will know what money you're putting in an offshore account, so you need to be able to account for it and prove that you've paid any tax on it.

But still it's theoretically possible, I mean you could do it in china or Thailand even, and when back from n SA, simply buy BTC and sell it overseas as the local currency?

Sure its possible to even buy swiss francs,

How otherwise the looted gets stored?
 
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