The Brexit Thread

[scud]

I’m betting they will have another vote, now that everyone’s a bit more educated on the consequences of leaving . Don’t understand why anyone should oppose this option, unless they fear the result would be different

 

[scud]

One thing I don’t grasp, is that I don’t personally know one leaver, out of 20 family and friends in uk. It’s rather odd

 

[f2wohf]

How about any bilateral trade agreement with any other nation outside of the EU? You realize that is entirely inaccessible to EU members right?

You do realize the EU has more trade agreements in more favorable terms than the UK will ever get on its own?

I also don’t see how that would bring a significant number of companies and organizations.

Any real life example that actually happened where a company or organization could not establish itself in the UK because of the EU? (That’s what you were saying no?)

 

[Pitbull]

I’m betting they will have another vote, now that everyone’s a bit more educated on the consequences of leaving . Don’t understand why anyone should oppose this option, unless they fear the result would be different

Not so.

The issue is when does a vote count as a vote then. Will Government just keep on calling votes till they get what they want? Leave, don't leave, leave, don't leave and so it goes on and on. A vote was done a result attained and now they need to do the will of the people who voted. Simple as that.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

You do realize the EU has more trade agreements in more favorable terms than the UK will ever get on its own?

Pure speculation, impossible to prove until it has actually been tried. Are you under the impression that China struggles negotiating trade deals? It's just one country after all ...

I also don’t see how that would bring a significant number of companies and organizations.

Indeed, none of us are immune to cognitive bias.

Any real life example that actually happened where a company or organization could not establish itself in the UK because of the EU? (That’s what you were saying no?)

Not quite, I was talking about the principle, though as if to prove the point the EU did formally remind the UK that they may not negotiate deals with other parties until after brexit. Can't find the 2016 warning / threat so easily, but that you can't sign trade deals was common understanding:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-negotiation-deal-us-brexit-european-union-member-philip-hammond-a7548641.html

 

[Cray]

Pure speculation, impossible to prove until it has actually been tried. Are you under the impression that China struggles negotiating trade deals? It's just one country after all ...

Size of the market is a big deal, China is a massive market and that gives it

China GDP - 11.2 Trillion $

UK GDP - 2.6 Trillion $

EU GDP (Including UK) - 19.7 Trillion $

Big markets have more power in determining trade deals.

 

[f2wohf]

Pure speculation, impossible to prove until it has actually been tried. Are you under the impression that China struggles negotiating trade deals? It's just one country after all ...

Very good example. The EU has many times the number of trade deals that China has (and in value it's probably impressively more), and it's not like China is not trading or chasing trade deals...

You think the UK would do better?

Not quite, I was talking about the principle, though as if to prove the point the EU did formally remind the UK that they may not negotiate deals with other parties until after brexit. Can't find the 2016 warning / threat so easily, but that you can't sign trade deals was common understanding:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-trade-negotiation-deal-us-brexit-european-union-member-philip-hammond-a7548641.html

Maybe because the EU has more trade deals and negotiates actively with more countries than anybody else?

If the UK wants a trade deal, they can get it through the EU by proposing a trade deal with x country to the EU.

You basically don't have the start of a proof that the Brexit would attract companies that were previously not able to access the EU.

Who and how any company on earth (except from countries sanctioned, which are sanctioned anyway by the UK too) is not able to access the EU?

 

[Dave]

Wait, you are saying a vote 41 years after a previous vote is a second referendum? Geesus :crylaugh:

Sure, it was a vote on it again, has nothing to do with the first vote. Just like you and I vote for a new party every 4 years. 41 farking years? LOL!!!!

If you think referendums and elections are the same thing you’re a lost cause...

 

[Pitbull]

If you think referendums and elections are the same thing you’re a lost cause...

You can nitpick all you want... I still don't understand how you can compare a vote of 41 years ago to another... It's boggles the mind.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Very good example. The EU has many times the number of trade deals that China has (and in value it's probably impressively more)

Sure, the EU is doing better, tell me which trend seems better to you here:
https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp
If that trend holds China's GDP surpasses the EU's total GDP in the next two or three years ... the same China that does not belong to any club that makes their laws for them ...

You think the UK would do better?

Better than China or the EU? No. I think the UK would do better by itself than the UK does within the EU, yes. That will require the nation to get off its collective asses and start fending for themselves without this bitching and moaning about weaning themselves off the EU-teet though.

If the UK wants a trade deal, they can get it through the EU by proposing a trade deal with x country to the EU.

And the deal would be shot down unless the country they wish to deal with also accepts all the EU rules as well. As an example, does the UK give a flying fig about other countries calling their Port or Champagnes by those names? No. Can any EU member trade those products with any other country that does not feel like renaming or re-branding them? No.

It would appear you don't quite get this whole "self-determination" thing. There's no "independence" when you have to get the permission of big brother at every step of the way.

 

[Dave]

You can nitpick all you want... I still don't understand how you can compare a vote of 41 years ago to another... It's boggles the mind.

The point is this was the 2nd referendum on the matter, something you apparently didn’t know.

 

[f2wohf]

Sure, the EU is doing better, tell me which trend seems better to you here:
https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/gdp
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/gdp
If that trend holds China's GDP surpasses the EU's total GDP in the next two or three years ... the same China that does not belong to any club that makes their laws for them ...

Changing goalposts. We speak of number of trade deals, you switch to GDP. If I ask you the interest rate on your car loan, you answer me with the number of cattle heads you have?

Better than China or the EU? No. I think the UK would do better by itself than the UK does within the EU, yes. That will require the nation to get off its collective asses and start fending for themselves without this bitching and moaning about weaning themselves off the EU-teet though.

In a nutshell, you are saying that the UK would have more trade agreements than the EU has? Waiting happily to see that.

And the deal would be shot down unless the country they wish to deal with also accepts all the EU rules as well. As an example, does the UK give a flying fig about other countries calling their Port or Champagnes by those names? No. Can any EU member trade those products with any other country that does not feel like renaming or re-branding them? No.

It would appear you don't quite get this whole "self-determination" thing. There's no "independence" when you have to get the permission of big brother at every step of the way.

Any proof that the negotiations of any trade deal that the UK would have had on its own fell down because of the UE? Historical example, not suppositions and guesses as you give since the beginning, the alcohol one didn't seem to impact any agreement being signed with the US.

Then, in early 2006, the United States and the European Union signed a wine-trade agreement, and the issue was brought up again. This time, the United States agreed to not allow new uses of certain terms that were previously considered to be "semi-generic," such as "Champagne" (as well as "Burgundy," "Chablis," "Port" and "Chianti"). But anyone who already had an approved label—Korbel and Miller High Life come to mind—was grandfathered in and may continue to use the term.

Since then, Comité Interprofessionnel du Vin de Champagne has sued or threatened to sue many people and companies that have adopted the term "Champagne," even Apple when it proposed a "Champagne" color for its new iPhone.

We are speaking of trade deals and whether more companies will come after Brexit (still waiting any tangible proof about that), not self-determination here.

 

[Cray]

And the deal would be shot down unless the country they wish to deal with also accepts all the EU rules as well. As an example, does the UK give a flying fig about other countries calling their Port or Champagnes by those names? No. Can any EU member trade those products with any other country that does not feel like renaming or re-branding them? No.
.

They cared enough about regional good protection to protect the term "Cornish Pasty"...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8340861/Cornish-pasty-given-EU-protected-status.html

 

[Dave]

They cared enough about regional good protection to protect the term "Cornish Pasty"...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8340861/Cornish-pasty-given-EU-protected-status.html

Now now, [MENTION=104574]Cray[/MENTION], if you’re going to make a statement let’s keep it accurate

The UK cared enough for:

Protected food name: Kentish ale (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Kentish strong ale (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Rutland bitter (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Bread, pastry, cakes, confectionery, biscuits and other bakers wares

Protected food name: Cornish pasty (PGI)
13 August 2014 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional bramley apple pie filling (TSG)
5 March 2015 Guidance
Cheeses

Protected food name: Beacon Fell traditional Lancashire cheese (PDO)
14 January 2014 Guidance
Protected food name: Bonchester cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Buxton Blue cheese
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Dorset Blue cheese (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Dovedale cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Exmoor Blue cheese
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Orkney Scottish Island Cheddar (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Single Gloucester (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Staffordshire cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Stilton Blue cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Stilton white cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Swaledale cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Swaledale ewes cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Teviotdale cheese (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Traditional Ayrshire Dunlop cheese (PGI)
27 March 2015 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional Welsh Caerphilly/traditional Welsh Caerffili
7 February 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: West Country Farmhouse Cheddar cheese (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Yorkshire Wensleydale cheese (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Ciders

Protected food name: Gloucestershire cider (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Gloucestershire perry (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Herefordshire cider (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Herefordshire perry (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional Welsh cider
7 June 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional Welsh perry
7 June 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: Worcestershire cider (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Worcestershire perry (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Cream

Protected food name: Cornish clotted cream (PDO)
20 January 2016 Guidance
Fresh fish, molluscs and crustaceans and products derived there from

Protected food name: Arbroath Smokies (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Conwy mussels (PDO)
4 November 2016 Guidance
Protected food name: Cornish sardines
31 July 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: Fal oysters (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Isle of Man Queenies (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: London cure smoked salmon
28 April 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: Lough Neagh Eels (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Lough Neagh Pollan
23 April 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: Scottish farmed salmon (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Scottish wild salmon (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Traditional Grimsby smoked fish (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: West Wales coracle caught salmon
22 February 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: West Wales coracle caught sewin
3 April 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: Whitstable oysters (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Fresh meat and offal

Protected food name: Isle of Man Manx Loaghtan lamb (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Lakeland Herdwick meat (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Orkney beef (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Orkney lamb (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Scotch beef (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Scotch lamb (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Shetland lamb (PDO)
19 November 2015 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional farm fresh turkey
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: traditionally farmed Gloucestershire old spots pork (TSG)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: traditionally reared pedigree Welsh pork
13 February 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: Welsh beef (PGI)
7 July 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Welsh lamb (PGI)
13 May 2016 Guidance
Protected food name: West Country beef
31 July 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: West Country lamb
31 July 2018 Guidance
Fruit, vegetables and cereals

Protected food name: Armagh bramley apples (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Fenland celery (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Jersey royal potatoes (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: new season Comber potatoes/Comber earlies (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Pembrokeshire early potatoes/Pembrokeshire earlies
31 July 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: Vale of Evesham asparagus
7 December 2016 Guidance
Protected food name: Yorkshire forced rhubarb (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Meat products

Protected food name: Carmarthen ham (PGI)
4 November 2016 Guidance
Protected food name: Melton Mowbray pork pie (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Newmarket sausage (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Stornoway Black Pudding (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: traditional Cumberland sausage (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance

Wine

In 2008 EU legislation came into force which provides for a system for the protection of wine names by quality or a geographical basis. The scheme highlights the quality and regional character of wines whose authenticity and origin can be guaranteed.

Under this system wine registered at a European level will be given legal protection against imitation throughout the EU; therefore, providing wine producers who register their wines for protection the benefit of having a raised awareness of their wine throughout Europe and the rest of the World.

Protected food name: Darnibole wine
3 July 2017 Guidance
Protected food name: English regional wine (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: English wine (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Welsh regional wine (PGI)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Welsh wine (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Wool

Protected food name: native Shetland wool (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Other products

Protected food name: East Kent goldings hops (PDO)
7 August 2007 Guidance
Protected food name: Anglesey sea salt/Halen Mon
31 July 2018 Guidance
Protected food name: Welsh laverbread
19 May 2017 Guidance

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/protected-food-name-scheme-uk-registered-products

 

[Cray]

Now now, [MENTION=104574]Cray[/MENTION], if you’re going to make a statement let’s keep it accurate

The UK cared enough for

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/protected-food-name-scheme-uk-registered-products

Eish, I didn't realize the list was that long

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

They cared enough about regional good protection to protect the term "Cornish Pasty"...

and they're most welcome to insert any such asinine measures into their own trade deals, but they'd certainly prefer not to add the asinine measures of other countries that they don't care about themselves

 

[Pitbull]

The point is this was the 2nd referendum on the matter, something you apparently didn’t know.

I clearly know that... 41 years apart though?

There is ZERO link between the two. You somehow think there is

41 years before this vote, they had a choice to stay or leave. They decided to stay. 41 years later they needed to decide if they want to stay still or leave. They decided to leave. Still don't see the relevance, if you are saying they should have another vote in 40 years, then sure I agree. A lot changes in 4 decades.

Still not sure what you're saying I guess

 

[Dave]

I clearly know that... 41 years apart though?

There is ZERO link between the two. You somehow think there is

41 years before this vote, they had a choice to stay or leave. They decided to stay. 41 years later they needed to decide if they want to stay still or leave. They decided to leave. Still don't see the relevance, if you are saying they should have another vote in 40 years, then sure I agree. A lot changes in 4 decades.

Still not sure what you're saying I guess

I’m saying there is no rule that a referendum makes a cut off or prevents further referendums on the same subject if it’s apparent the people have changed their mind or it becomes clear a referendum was flawed or parties that participated used illegal methods to strengthen their viewpoint.

Sensible, no?

 

[Pitbull]

I’m saying there is no rule that a referendum makes a cut off or prevents further referendums on the same subject if it’s apparent the people have changed their mind or it becomes clear a referendum was flawed or parties that participated used illegal methods to strengthen their viewpoint.

Sensible, no?

No it's not.

Having 2 referendums 40+ years apart makes sense, 100%, no one ever disputed that. If you are saying they need a new vote now because you don't agree with the outcome of two years ago (which hasn't even been implemented yet btw) you are wrong.

So again, I don't see the relevance for you even bringing it up

No one ever said there wasn't a vote on the subject before...

 

[Dave]

No it's not.

Having 2 referendums 40+ years apart makes sense, 100%, no one ever disputed that. If you are saying they need a new vote now because you don't agree with the outcome of two years ago (which hasn't even been implemented yet btw) you are wrong.

So again, I don't see the relevance for you even bringing it up

No one ever said there wasn't a vote on the subject before...

So, in general, you are opposed to a decision being rescinded or retaken if it is later proved that decision was arrived at using proven lies, illegal means and/or corruption?

That’s a general question, not specifically aimed at the Brexit issue.