The Brexit Thread

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NarrowBandFtw said:
Of course should the hypothetical constituent write you in future and ask you for the net present value of pure socialism you will provide some accurate numbers yes?
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I'm not the one making assertions that Brexit will be good for Britain. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to what "burden of proof" entails.

Chris_the_Brit said:
Surely you should be more worried that a drunkard like Jean-Claude Juncker can climb up the greasy pole to the top of the EU bureaucracy?
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Unable to argue the point at hand, resorts to whataboutism character assassination instead.

Chris_the_Brit said:
The constituent was being a bit of a knob, to be honest.
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Ah, so when constituents want hard data to back up the claims that Brexiteers have made that Brexit will be beneficial, they're "knobs". Interesting, though unsurprising; feels > reals in evidence once more, and of course the standard Brexiteer derision for anyone who threatens their beautiful delusion of un-setting the sun on their long-dead empire.

buka001 said:
Pity he hardly ever pitched up to lobby for the UK.
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Or at all.
 
The_Assimilator said:
I'm not the one making assertions that Brexit will be good for Britain. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to what "burden of proof" entails.
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Still missing the point I see, just like the knob who was expecting an NPV figure and bragged about his three irrelevant degrees.

Suppose they should have written the guy back in a way he could understand, in fat crayon letters: "sir you are asking for the incalculable to be calculated, it is an irrational expectation that no amount of degrees will help with"
 
noxibox said:
You'll have to take that up with the Leave campaigners. I didn't run their campaign or control their portrayal of the UK's position in the EU. I also can't control the fact that it is still part of the campaign's rhetoric.
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I, on the other hand, am not so concerned with what others say, unless they are attempting to reverse the referendum decision. We are leaving. Full stop. From my point of view that is for reasons of principle, rather than economics. To repeat myself, the reasons are expansionism of the EU, and corruption within the EU.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Still missing the point I see, just like the knob who was expecting an NPV figure and bragged about his three irrelevant degrees.

Suppose they should have written the guy back in a way he could understand, in fat crayon letters: "sir you are asking for the incalculable to be calculated, it is an irrational expectation that no amount of degrees will help with"
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So then, the £350 million/week NHS saving that the Leave campaign claimed must be made up, since such figures are, by your assertion, "incalculable".

Frequent visitor said:
To repeat myself, the reasons are expansionism of the EU, and corruption within the EU.
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What expansionism? What corruption?
 
Frequent visitor said:
I, on the other hand, am not so concerned with what others say, unless they are attempting to reverse the referendum decision. We are leaving. Full stop. From my point of view that is for reasons of principle, rather than economics. To repeat myself, the reasons are expansionism of the EU, and corruption within the EU.
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@Frequent visitor
My view is that the UK could remain, and strengthen its position and arrangements with the EU. Sort of a win/win

Leaving on the other hand is a high risk option, with no guarantees.

Is it really worth the risk?
Too late now I know , but voters were not aware of the implications
 
scud said:
@Frequent visitor
My view is that the UK could remain, and strengthen its position and arrangements with the EU. Sort of a win/win

Leaving on the other hand is a high risk option, with no guarantees.

Is it really worth the risk?
Too late now I know , but voters were not aware of the implications
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Strenghten what?

They already have the best deals out of all member countries. Contribution rebates and a la carte options that no other country has.
 
The_Assimilator said:
So then, the £350 million/week NHS saving that the Leave campaign claimed must be made up, since such figures are, by your assertion, "incalculable".
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Surely by now you know that figure has been discredited? And you also should know Farage / UKIP didn't make the claim to begin with ...

That aside, no overall figure can be calculated for brexit as a whole, just like no overall figure can be calculated for remaining as a whole. Specific figures can be calculated, such as NHS, but that wasn't what the guy asked for, nor would it mean anything in terms of the bigger picture.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Surely by now you know that figure has been discredited? And you also should know Farage / UKIP didn't make the claim to begin with ...

That aside, no overall figure can be calculated for brexit as a whole, just like no overall figure can be calculated for remaining as a whole. Specific figures can be calculated, such as NHS, but that wasn't what the guy asked for, nor would it mean anything in terms of the bigger picture.
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He didn't start the claim, he claimed the figure was even higher...

However footage from BBC Question Time on 9 June – just weeks before the referendum – shows the Ukip leader claiming the available cash was higher than £350 million and saying money should be spent on hospitals and GPs.

“Can we just get to the truth of this - £350 million a week is wrong, it’s higher than that,” he told the programme’s audience.

“FACT – absolute fact – from the official statistics cross-checked from the EU: we pay £55 million a day as a contribution. Some of that is the rebate which doesn’t go but our gross contribution is £55 million a day.”
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...unds-live-health-service-u-turn-a7102831.html
 
The_Assimilator said:
I'm not the one making assertions that Brexit will be good for Britain. Perhaps you should educate yourself as to what "burden of proof" entails.
R
The_Assimilator said:
So then, the £350 million/week NHS saving that the Leave campaign claimed must be made up, since such figures are, by your assertion, "incalculable".



What expansionism? What corruption?
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The_Assimilator said:
So then, the £350 million/week NHS saving that the Leave campaign claimed must be made up, since such figures are, by your assertion, "incalculable".
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This is getting a bit unhelpfully 'yah boo'. The UK is leaving the EU.

Examples of expansionism include the unpleasantness in the Ukraine, which arose from Putin's reaction to the EU trying to expand its economic influence in that area. The admission of FSR countries would be another. Turkey is a candidate member, admittedly on hold for governance reasons. Then we have Georgia........

Corruption? I wonder if you are being serious. You could take a look at the CPI to start off. Yes, there are worse than the EU, but that excuses nothing - which parallels some of your previous points. Greece is down there with SA, Italy has never had a good reputation, Spain has major scandals. The UK is not doing so well either.
Right at the beginning we had to write off many items that were not properly vouched after exporting to Italy. There were the fields of crops that did not exist, but attracted payments from EU funds. There was the infamous cross border farm in Ireland (he went to prison eventually, to be fair), and I could go on and on. Being in HMC&E I saw much of it at first hand.
 
Mr.
scud said:
@Frequent visitor
My view is that the UK could remain, and strengthen its position and arrangements with the EU. Sort of a win/win

Leaving on the other hand is a high risk option, with no guarantees.

Is it really worth the risk?
Too late now I know , but voters were not aware of the implications
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I voted remain in 1975 for similar reasons. Did we win? Not that I can see, after 43 years. I would agree that the initial recent furore arose from a bad decision by the then Prime Minister Mr. Blair, but there was a high risk of war over the situation in the Ukraine. That seems VERY high risk to me. As I am 78 I tend to be short termish of course.
 
f2wohf said:
He didn't start the claim, he claimed the figure was even higher...
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While making it clear he wouldn't recommend spending it all on NHS. He's probably right about the figure itself being higher, pretty much every rebuttal points out how complex it is to even calculate due to all the rules, rebates and what not involved i.e. nobody has given a credible figure actually, only that 350 mil isn't it

And imagine if the net contribution figure is difficult to determine, what hope is there to accurately derive the opportunity cost of not exiting the EU?
 
Frequent visitor said:
Examples of expansionism include the unpleasantness in the Ukraine, which arose from Putin's reaction to the EU trying to expand its economic influence in that area. The admission of FSR countries would be another. Turkey is a candidate member, admittedly on hold for governance reasons. Then we have Georgia........
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How is it "expansionism" to allow other countries to join of their own free accord to share in the benefits of the EU?

Frequent visitor said:
Corruption? I wonder if you are being serious. You could take a look at the CPI to start off. Yes, there are worse than the EU, but that excuses nothing - which parallels some of your previous points. Greece is down there with SA, Italy has never had a good reputation, Spain has major scandals. The UK is not doing so well either.
Right at the beginning we had to write off many items that were not properly vouched after exporting to Italy. There were the fields of crops that did not exist, but attracted payments from EU funds. There was the infamous cross border farm in Ireland (he went to prison eventually, to be fair), and I could go on and on. Being in HMC&E I saw much of it at first hand.
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I agree that corruption (and ineptitude) is endemic within the EU, but as you yourself have admitted, the UK is part and parcel of it. Is simply walking away from it going to fix it, or is that cost simply going to be included in whatever trade deal the UK ends up having to negotiate with the EU?

As for the examples you've given, unfortunately I am not familiar with them, and would appreciate if you could provide a bit more info for me to investigate, as Google isn't very helpful. Is the "cross-border farm" referring to Slab Murphy?
 
scud said:
For example they could tighten up immigration law / requirements.

They could renegotiate whatever they want and still remain.
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They can already tighten it under EU treaties. They just never bothered even trying to do it.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-divide-eu-migration-fact-from-brexit-fantasy

EU CITIZENS MUST BE SELF-SUPPORTING. After 3 months in the UK EU migrants need to be either working, have a member of the family working or have sufficient funds to live (and have full sickness insurance). If not then they can be returned to their home country.

The UK does not register migrants as they arrive and as such has no way of knowing how long they have been in the UK. There are no efforts to track or control this movement. This once more allows the EU-skeptics to portray the FoM as "uncontrolled migration".
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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/richard-bird/immigration-blame-the-uk-_b_13120104.html
 
I'm surprised that either @Chris_the_Brit or Jacob Rees-Mogg failed to buy it. You're both short of cash while your money is being transferred out of the UK?

Nigel Farage portrait displayed at Royal Academy goes unsold

A portrait of Nigel Farage has gone unsold at one of Britain’s most prestigious art shows.

The painting shows the former Ukip leader standing with his arms crossed wearing his signature purple-striped tie.

Priced at £25,000, the work by David Griffiths failed to attract any interest at the Royal Academy’s summer exhibition, curated by the artist Grayson Perry.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...c-royal-academy-david-griffiths-a8513241.html
 
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