The Brexit Thread

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NarrowBandFtw said:
The reality says different:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_United_Kingdom_renegotiation_of_European_Union_membership
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:unsure:
But your link says the same?

Free movement of people is an important tenet of the European Union and enshrined in primary law in treaties.[15] The EU deal subtly changes the free movement rules to make it easier for countries to deport EU immigrants. This is achieved by "beefing up" the exceptions to the general rule that EU citizens can live and work where they choose in the EU.[16]

National governments have a carefully restricted ability to restrict the free movement of people about the EU.[17] Once a citizen lives in another EU country the threshold of reason for the local government to remove them becomes progressively higher.[16] The changes planned in the EU-deal are subtle changes of wording to permit governments to take in to account where migrants' behaviour is "likely" to represent a threat, rather than that it "does",[18] and allows government to take in to more account a person's past behaviour rather than just their present.
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That also shows that the UK had influence in the EU and that the EU leaders are amenable to making changes.

The Voice said:
Jokes aside, they don't seem to be able to stem the flow from the Commonwealth. The difference between them and the EU is that it's more common for an EU citizen to come over here to work or study for a few years and then go back home. People from the Commonwealth rarely go back, though, as their aim is to settle here.
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If they really have difficulty stemming the flow from the Commonwealth I'd have to ask why. The number coming in on ancestry permits looks pretty low, so what easy route are they using to enter the UK?

NarrowBandFtw said:
The reality says different:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015–16_United_Kingdom_renegotiation_of_European_Union_membership
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That actually confirms that EU states already had rights to put limitations on movement.
 
dw... said:
That also seems to agree with the fact that there are limitations and controls available.
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read carefully, Cameron conceded almost every single thing to the EU despite promising his electorate in advance

while "limitations" may be available, what does it say about sovereignty and ultimate control when the EU has the final say in all these matters?

Non-EU members, even those with strict trade agreements with the EU, simply do not bow down to the EU in this fashion. Which is the core of brexit: actually being in control instead of going hat in hand to Brussels every time you want to make a change to your own country.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
read carefully, Cameron conceded almost every single thing to the EU despite promising his electorate in advance

while "limitations" may be available, what does it say about sovereignty and ultimate control when the EU has the final say in all these matters?

Non-EU members, even those with strict trade agreements with the EU, simply do not bow down to the EU in this fashion. Which is the core of brexit: actually being in control instead of going hat in hand to Brussels every time you want to make a change to your own country.
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Hang on, why are you debating about Cameron? I don’t care about him, I thought we were discussing that EU member states do have some control over immigration of eu citizens and can deport those who arrive and don’t work or commit crime?
 
dw... said:
Hang on, why are you debating about Cameron? I don’t care about him, I thought we were discussing that EU member states do have some control over immigration of eu citizens and can deport those who arrive and don’t work or commit crime?
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Disingenuous or just ill-informed?

Cameron staked his entire political career, and indeed the referendum itself, on the theory that he could arrange "more control" for the UK's EU membership. He was sent home with his tail tucked between his legs, forced to allow the referendum, lost and resigned.

Cameron is the quintessential example and proof that no, the UK does NOT have control as an EU member state. May just reaffirmed that by also failing dismally at "negotiating" with the EU, on literally every hard line issue it is the EU's decision that stands, noone else's.

Ergo: the only way to have real control, not piss-willy faux control where you still need daddy's permission for every choice you make, is to not be a member state.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Disingenuous or just ill-informed?

Cameron staked his entire political career, and indeed the referendum itself, on the theory that he could arrange "more control" for the UK's EU membership. He was sent home with his tail tucked between his legs, forced to allow the referendum, lost and resigned.

Cameron is the quintessential example and proof that no, the UK does NOT have control as an EU member state. May just reaffirmed that by also failing dismally at "negotiating" with the EU, on literally every hard line issue it is the EU's decision that stands, noone else's.

Ergo: the only way to have real control, not piss-willy faux control where you still need daddy's permission for every choice you make, is to not be a member state.
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I think it looks like you’re fixated on Cameron rather than what the rules actually allow.
 
Norway is effectively subject to the same free movement requirements. So if EU citizens coming to the UK and working is considered a major problem it is not going to go away by leaving the EU if they stay in the EEA. Any variance has to be negotiated with the EU. Countries like Norway don't get to make unilateral decisions about the four freedoms. Even Switzerland has had to back down on attempts to prevent EU citizens working in the country. That means the EU is going to require the same from the UK as part of any bilateral agreement.

As for what Cameron went in wanting and what he got that is how negotiations work. The UK is still going to have to negotiate with the EU when they're out and they're still not going to just get whatever they demand. The leave camp still seem to be living in some fantasy world where the UK holds all the cards and can just push the EU around. The UK will never have control. They can have some influence. It doesn't seem likely they'll have more outside the EU though.
 
dw... said:
I think it looks like you’re fixated on Cameron rather than what the rules actually allow.
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so disingenuous, thanks for clarifying

what the rules say on paper in a hypothetical sense is worlds apart from the reality, as demonstrated by Cameron, as demonstrated by May, as demonstrated by Poland who got reprimanded for the way they deal with their domestic press, as demonstrated by Hungary who got reprimanded for erecting physical borders to stop the influx of migrants
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
what the rules say on paper
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are exactly what a court would use to rule on if a case for noncompliance was ever started against a member state. Everything else you’ve written is just white noise and personal opinion.
 
Cameron was seeking an expansion of the rules. The UK however already had the option of controls it has failed to use.

Norway is effectively subject to the same free movement requirements. So if EU citizens coming to the UK and working is considered a major problem it is not going to go away by leaving the EU if it stays in the EEA. Any variance has to be negotiated with the EU. Countries like Norway don't get to make unilateral decisions about the four freedoms. Even Switzerland has had to back down on attempts to prevent EU citizens working in the country.

This is how negotiations work.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
yeah the actual examples I gave you are "personal opinion" :ROFL:


ahem *cough* ...
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-parliament...anctions-procedure-against-hungary/a-45459720
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Cough all you want.

In a tense vote, a majority of EU lawmakers backed a motion that opens the door to sanctions against Hungary. Viktor Orban's government is accused of silencing media, targeting NGOs and removing independent judges.

Members of the European Parliament voted to censure the Hungarian government on Wednesday for eroding democracy and failing to uphold fundamental European Union values
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Not a wall mentioned in that article you posted
Hungary has been trying to make themselves Russia for a while now
 
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