The Brexit Thread

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Ancalagon

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Man Nigel schooled them. His showmanship was superb.

I do wish he had ended it like Jeremy Clarkson though.

"and on that bombshell, its time to say goodnight."

A year ago, the political authority argument would not have made sense to me. Now it makes complete sense.
 
OrbitalDawn

OrbitalDawn

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Ancalagon said:
Man Nigel schooled them. His showmanship was superb.

I do wish he had ended it like Jeremy Clarkson though.

"and on that bombshell, its time to say goodnight."

A year ago, the political authority argument would not have made sense to me. Now it makes complete sense.
Click to expand...

What's the argument?
 
OrbitalDawn

OrbitalDawn

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Chris_the_Brit said:
1. Can MEPs initiate EU legislation?
2. Can you vote out the EU Commission?

You can find the seeds of discontent in the answers to the above.
Click to expand...

Said without a hint of irony about the House of Lords and the Monarchy, presumably?

Anyway:

1. They can request legislation, but it's mainly done by the EU Commission, with the commissioners nominated by the member states themselves and approved by the EU Parliament, the directly elected body. Although more than 80% isn't initiated by the Commission (i.e. by Parliament).

The EU Parliament and EU Council can also amend or veto legislation.

And let's not pretend the UK system isn't a joke, where the vast majority of bills not submitted by government don't even get a first reading, if they're allowed to be introduced at all.

2. Can you vote out the UK or US Cabinet?

Ancalagon said:
Many of the bodies of the EU are not accountable to the public that they control.
Click to expand...

Which ones? They're accountable to their own country's electorates (in the case of EU bodies that are made up of their own representatives like the EU Commission and Council of the EU) or to the EU Parliament, which is directly elected. How else would you do it?

And how is it different to the UK Government which is also unaccountable to the public? They're accountable to the UK Parliament, which is in turn accountable to the public. That's the whole point of representative democracy.

So they're basically arguing that they want direct democracy in the EU, but not in the UK itself...
 
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noxibox

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OrbitalDawn said:
And how is it different to the UK Government which is also unaccountable to the public? They're accountable to the UK Parliament, which is in turn accountable to the public. That's the whole point of representative democracy.

So they're basically arguing that they want direct democracy in the EU, but not in the UK itself...
Click to expand...
It isn't really different to the UK government. Although in reality the UK parliament isn't truly accountable to the public.

Of course they don't want it in the UK. If it existed in the UK they'd never have been able push Brexit through. It's pretty clear it lost popular support.
 
rietrot

rietrot

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noxibox said:
It isn't really different to the UK government. Although in reality the UK parliament isn't truly accountable to the public.

Of course they don't want it in the UK. If it existed in the UK they'd never have been able push Brexit through. It's pretty clear it lost popular support.
Click to expand...
The past elections has shown the UK probably has one of the most accountable parliaments in the world. People can directly elect MPs to represent them.
 
A

access

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lol as if the citizens of the european countries had any say in electing the eu leadership
 
The_Right_Honourable_Brit

The_Right_Honourable_Brit

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OrbitalDawn said:
Said without a hint of irony about the House of Lords and the Monarchy, presumably?

Anyway:

1. They can request legislation, but it's mainly done by the EU Commission, with the commissioners nominated by the member states themselves and approved by the EU Parliament, the directly elected body. Although more than 80% isn't initiated by the Commission (i.e. by Parliament).

The EU Parliament and EU Council can also amend or veto legislation.

And let's not pretend the UK system isn't a joke, where the vast majority of bills not submitted by government don't even get a first reading, if they're allowed to be introduced at all.

2. Can you vote out the UK or US Cabinet?



Which ones? They're accountable to their own country's electorates (in the case of EU bodies that are made up of their own representatives like the EU Commission and Council of the EU) or to the EU Parliament, which is directly elected. How else would you do it?

And how is it different to the UK Government which is also unaccountable to the public? They're accountable to the UK Parliament, which is in turn accountable to the public. That's the whole point of representative democracy.

So they're basically arguing that they want direct democracy in the EU, but not in the UK itself...
Click to expand...

Engaging in whataboutism. The HoC reigns supreme over the Lord's (the Lord's can only *suggest* amendments) and the Monarchy has been reduced to a largely ceremonial role. To compare the monarchy or the Lord's to the all powerful EU Commission is laughable.

No the UK government is not unaccountable to the UK public. The government is mostly composed of MPs who are elected every 5 years. Remind me: can you vote out EU commissioners?

Do you the current EU president wasn't even on the ballot? She was the outcome of a behind the doors horse trading.
 
OrbitalDawn

OrbitalDawn

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Chris_the_Brit said:
Engaging in whataboutism.
Click to expand...

Literally none of this is whataboutism. You should try to understand the definition a bit better.

It shows the 'problems' you have with the EU's system applies exactly the same way to the UK's, yet apparently you (and Farage) have no problem with it there.

Chris_the_Brit said:
No the UK government is not unaccountable to the UK public. The government is mostly composed of MPs who are elected every 5 years. Remind me: can you vote out EU commissioners?
Click to expand...

So... that's a no, then? Thanks for confirming you can't vote out the UK or US Cabinet, or the PM.

Chris_the_Brit said:
Do you the current EU president wasn't even on the ballot? She was the outcome of a behind the doors horse trading.
Click to expand...

So just like the UK PM? Buhhh.

The President of the EU Commission is nominated by the heads of the member states and approved by the EU Parliament. And the Commissioners are nominated by the member states themselves, also subject to the EU Parliament's approval. You would have soiled yourself if the UK couldn't nominate their own Commissioner.
 
Spizz

Spizz

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Look on the bright side Remainers. At least the NHS will be getting an extra £350m a week from tomorrow.

Right Boris?

e72adb448f08b619e777294160252043.jpg
 
scud

scud

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I've always had the sense that Brexiteers are also Trump Supporters.
Probably because I'm against both, but is this a thing ?
I think they both track to the swing to populist politics, amplified by social media.

Any Brexiteers here who don't support Trump. or visa versa ?
 
Spizz

Spizz

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scud said:
I've always had the sense that Brexiteers are also Trump Supporters.
Probably because I'm against both, but is this a thing ?
I think they both track to the swing to populist politics, amplified by social media.

Any Brexiteers here who don't support Trump. or visa versa ?
Click to expand...

I was chatting with an English friend in London on Messenger this morning, big Brexit fan who absolutely hates both the Tories and Trump.
 
A

Ancalagon

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I support Brexit. Trump is not my ideal candidate to run the USA but a better choice than Hilary Clinton.

Trump is inevitable in some senses, a sign of the times, a sign that the world is not as liberal as the world would like us to believe.
 
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