The Brexit Thread

[Vox Populi Vox Dei]

No, how on earth did you interpret it that way? The part you boldest doesn't include the EU admitting anything whatsoever

Juncker said there would be no trade deal if a divorce bill wasn't settled. Doesn't sound like there is actual provision in the treaty for countries to pay a bill when they exit the EU. I don't think anyone has read any of the EU treaties (which I guess are 100s or 1000s pages long) but I'd like evidence that a country exiting the EU has to pay a divorce bill.

Instead Juncker is saying if there is no divorce settlement, there will not be a trade deal. In other words, if you don't give me X, I won't give you Y.

 

[f2wohf]

What does "indirectly elected" mean?

Do you have any idea how UK politics and government formation work?

Again, who was the last elected PM?

It means people elect MPs who elect a PM, it's a widespread concept in political sciences...

Therefore she is indirectly elected by the people (as is Juncker).

I'll refer you to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_election

The last elected directly or indirectly? If indirectly I have answered the question. Directly I have no clue if it ever existed in the British system.

 

[f2wohf]

Juncker said there would be no trade deal if a divorce bill wasn't settled. Doesn't sound like there is actual provision in the treaty for countries to pay a bill when they exit the EU. I don't think anyone has read any of the EU treaties (which I guess are 100s or 1000s pages long) but I'd like evidence that a country exiting the EU has to pay a divorce bill.

Instead Juncker is saying if there is no divorce settlement, there will not be a trade deal. In other words, if you don't give me X, I won't give you Y.

There isn't. The only provision for leaving is Article 50.

I've read a big chunk of the treaties as I've studied EU law.

But U.K. committed to settle their debt which is why the EU claims it.

 

[Dave]

It means people elect MPs who elect a PM, it's a widespread concept in political sciences...

Therefore she is indirectly elected by the people (as is Juncker).

I'll refer you to this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_election

The last elected directly or indirectly? If indirectly I have answered the question. Directly I have no clue if it ever existed in the British system.

So you're saying the MP's elect the PM?

 

[f2wohf]

So you're saying the MP's elect the PM?

Usually it's a MP who's the head of the majority party.

If you read my link:

in the United Kingdom, the Prime Minister usually is a member of the House of Commons, the lower, elected house of Parliament and the leader of the political party with the most seats able to command a majority either outright or by agreement with other parties. The members that represent district councils in the leadership of a Combined Authority are elected from within each districts Metropolitan Borough councils (usually but not exclusively the current leader of the council), similarly they nominate councillors to sit on the committees which provide oversight of the combined authority. From May 2017 some Combined Authorities also have directly elected mayors to provide direction and assign cabinet portfolios to the districts chosen representatives.

 

[Dave]

Usually it's a MP who's the head of the majority party.

If you read my link:

in the United Kingdom, the Prime Minister usually is a member of the House of Commons, the lower, elected house of Parliament and the leader of the political party with the most seats able to command a majority either outright or by agreement with other parties. The members that represent district councils in the leadership of a Combined Authority are elected from within each districts Metropolitan Borough councils (usually but not exclusively the current leader of the council), similarly they nominate councillors to sit on the committees which provide oversight of the combined authority. From May 2017 some Combined Authorities also have directly elected mayors to provide direction and assign cabinet portfolios to the districts chosen representatives.

Your link doesn't answer the question.

Are you saying the MPs elect the PM?

 

[zippy]

No, how on earth did you interpret it that way? The part you boldest doesn't include the EU admitting anything whatsoever

You need to be in his universe.

 

[f2wohf]

Your link doesn't answer the question.

Are you saying the MPs elect the PM?

The Queen appoints the leader of the majority party.

Happy ?

10 messages to go back to the same point. Juncker has no less legitimacy than May...

I hope nit-picking and makes happy...

 

[Dave]

The Queen appoints the leader of the majority party.

Happy ?

10 messages to go back to the same point. Juncker has no less legitimacy than May...

I hope nit-picking and makes happy...

No, you're still not accurate, why do you continue to spam this forum with all your BS, rumour and opinion?

Half the time you're adding nothing to the debate other than in your slightly inflated ego filled idea of self importance as the resident "exspurt"...

Would you like to be educated into how the leader of the party is elected and how that connects to be appointed PM?

 

[f2wohf]

No, you're still not accurate, why do you continue to spam this forum with all your BS, rumour and opinion?

Half the time you're adding nothing to the debate other than in your slightly inflated ego filled idea of self importance as the resident "exspurt"...

Would you like to be educated into how the leader of the party is elected and how that connects to be appointed PM?

https://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showth...-on-June-8?p=19608924&viewfull=1#post19608924

I was not arguing with you but with Narrowband, you crashed the discussion to deviate it into something else. Like trolls do.

 

[Dave]

I was not arguing with you but with Narrowband, you crashed the discussion to deviate it into something else. Like trolls do.

You want to argue with someone, fine, argue with them, but don't write crap in order to to provoke that argument.

Let me remind you what you said:

By the way, remind me when the British voted for May as PM ? Or did they vote for Cameron who resigned and then the party appointed May ? Was she elected as PM ? No.

If you had even half a clue about how it worked, you'd know how and when any PM has been voted for, and who votes for them to be PM and the procedure that follows to be made PM.

 

[f2wohf]

You want to argue with someone, fine, argue with them, but don't write crap in order to to provoke that argument.

Let me remind you what you said:



If you had even half a clue about how it worked, you'd know how and when any PM has been voted for, and who votes for them to be PM and the procedure that follows to be made PM.

I reiterate, no British votes for a PM. It is an indirect election.

They vote for MPs, the leader of the majority party or the leader of the formed coalition is then appointed by the Queen.

Where did I say the opposite ?

"Each parliamentary constituency of the United Kingdom elects one MP to the House of Commons using the "first past the post" system. If one party obtains a majority of seats, then that party is entitled to form the Government, with its leader as Prime Minister. If the election results in no single party having a majority, then there is a hung parliament. In this case, the options for forming the Government are either a minority government or a coalition government."

 

[Dave]

I reiterate, no British votes for a PM. It is an indirect election.

They vote for MPs, the leader of the majority party or the leader of the formed coalition is then appointed by the Queen.

Will you ever stop with your ignorant waffle?

 

[f2wohf]

Will you ever stop with your ignorant waffle?

Then explain how it works ?

And mostly where I'm wrong... because then Wikipedia is wrong...

But I have no doubt your superior intelligence is above all this petty tools of knowledge.

Just for information, it's exactly what I said:

"The office is not established by any constitution or law but exists only by long-established convention, which stipulates that the monarch must appoint as prime minister the person most likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons;[4] this individual is typically the leader of the political party or coalition of parties that holds the largest number of seats in that chamber."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

I maintain 1) that it is being indirectly elected and 2) that no British votes for a PM but they vote for MPs.

 

[Dave]

Then explain how it works ?

The leadership of the Conservative party is put to nomination by the party's MP's, those nominated are then voted on by the MP's until there are 2 candidates left, they are then put on a ballot and voted for by the general public who are registered as Party members. Winning this only makes the person leader of the party.

After an election the Queen will appoint the leader of the party she feels is most likely to "command the confidence in the Commons", this person could be the leader of the biggest party but could also be a nominee of a coalition of parties that holds the largest number of seats.

The Prime Minister has always been appointed in this way, May is no different in this respect, she was appointed by the Queen, just like her predecessors.

 

[f2wohf]

The leadership of the Conservative party is put to nomination by the party's MP's, those nominated are then voted on by the MP's until there are 2 candidates left, they are then put on a ballot and voted for by the general public who are registered as Party members. Winning this only makes the person leader of the party.

After an election the Queen will appoint the leader of the party she feels is most likely to "command the confidence in the Commons", this person could be the leader of the biggest party but could also be a nominee of a coalition of parties that holds the largest number of seats.

The Prime Minister has always been appointed in this way, May is no different in this respect, she was appointed by the Queen, just like her predecessors.

Except that the population did not have a choice to vote again for MPs when May was appointed, as they did when Cameron was appointed.

For Cameron the general population voted for the Tories knowing this would result in Cameron. For May, the British did not vote and actually not even the party members voted as she was unopposed.

Which made me say that she is even less elected that Cameron was.

 

[Dave]

Except that the population did not have a choice to vote again for MPs when May was appointed, as they did when Cameron was appointed.

For Cameron the general population voted for the Tories knowing this would result in Cameron. For May, the British did not vote and actually not even the party members voted as she was unopposed.

Which made me say that she is even less elected that Cameron was.

She was appointed in exactly the same way Cameron was, under British law. The same as Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, Callaghan, Wilson, Heath...

 

[f2wohf]

She was appointed in exactly the same way Cameron was, under British law. The same as Brown, Blair, Major, Thatcher, Callaghan, Wilson, Heath...

First, the election is not ruled by law... but by conventions as most of the British system is...

The prime minister's office doesn't even exist by law.

"The office is not established by any constitution or law but exists only by long-established convention, which stipulates that the monarch must appoint as prime minister the person most likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons;"

Secondly, there was no general election after she became party leader. Her legitimacy from the people will come from June's election.

 

[Dave]

First, the election is not ruled by law... but by conventions as most of the British system is...

What??

Don't start again with your nonsense..

Parliament (Qualification of Women) Act 1918
Parliamentary Elections (Returns) Act 1695
Parliamentary Elections Act 1695
Parliamentary Elections Act 1770
Parliamentary Elections Corrupt Practices Act 1885
Political Parties and Elections Act 2009
Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000
Qualification of Women (County and Borough Councils) Act 1907
Redistribution of Seats Act 1885
Elections (Hours of Poll) Act 1885
Elections Act 2001
Elections and Registration Act 1915
Electoral Administration Act 2006
Electoral Disabilities (Military Service) Removal Act 1900
Electoral Fraud (Northern Ireland) Act 2002
Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013
European Assembly Elections Act 1978
European Parliament (Representation) Act 2003
European Parliamentary and Local Elections (Pilots) Act 2004
European Parliamentary Elections Act 1993
European Parliamentary Elections Act 1999
European Parliamentary Elections Act 2002
Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011
Freeman (Admission) Act 1763
Ballot Act 1872
Reform Act 1832
Reform Act 1867
Representation of the People (Ireland) Act 1868
Representation of the People (Scotland) Act 1868
Representation of the People Act 1884
Representation of the People Act 1918
Representation of the People (Equal Franchise) Act 1928
Representation of the People Act 1948
Representation of the People Act 1949
Representation of the People Act 1969
Representation of the People Act 1981
Representation of the People Act 1983
Representation of the People Act 1985
Representation of the People Act 1989
Representation of the People Act 1990
Representation of the People Act 2000

And that's not all the laws relating to UK elections.

The prime minister's office doesn't even exist by law.

"The office is not established by any constitution or law but exists only by long-established convention, which stipulates that the monarch must appoint as prime minister the person most likely to command the confidence of the House of Commons;"

The office exists under convention, which as most of the British constitution is unwritten is not an unusual procedure. You probably wouldn't be aware having never been a British citizen.

Secondly, there was no general election after she became party leader. Her legitimacy from the people will come from June's election.

Mainly because there's no law that says there must, in fact the current law says there mustn't.

 

[f2wohf]

What??

Don't start again with your nonsense..



And that's not all the laws relating to UK elections.



The office exists under convention, which as most of the British constitution is unwritten is not an unusual procedure. You probably wouldn't be aware having never been a British citizen.




Mainly because there's no law that says there must, in fact the current law says there mustn't.

Sorry I should have clarified, the PM election and status is not ruled by law, but by convention. Again don't misread me, convention is perfectly acceptable and doesn't mean it's illegal at all.

Obviously the general election is ruled by law.

I never said there should have been elections for May, but you can't disagree that being voted for on your person (such as Cameron) gives you more legitimacy compared to May right now. And should she be reelected, she will be perceived as having more legitimacy.

You know that for a few decades now, British institutions are at the programme of french law schools ? (I guess it will disappear after Brexit).