The Brexit Thread

[Frequent visitor]

OD has intentionally misrepresented my words, that's his usual tactic, pay it no mind. I never said everyone is anti Brexit, my exact words were:

and I stand by it

I don't much care what they think, so long as they vote Brexit, as the public in the UK have said they want. The problem many MPs have is that they live in the great wen (London), and their social life revolves around people who regard themselves as a metropolitan elite. I do not doubt that these people (who are not any sort of elite, contrary to their feelings) are mainly anti Brexit. Social ostracization would follow if they do not go with the herd. Tough eh? But their status rests on the votes they got from the rest of us, and most of them are nothing without that. Some of the ex MP's after the last two elections are in a difficult state, particularly if they are married to someone who remained elected. My heart does not bleed for them: that is the name of the game.

It seems they've found a group of people more stupid than gun-toting Confederate-flag-waving southern USA Trump voters. That is impressive, in a despair-for-humanity sense.

Trump according to Wikipaedia drew wide support, not just from the old Confederate states. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2016.
The documentary is perhaps not as disturbing as the blurb indicates, but is nonetheless disturbing. I have no quarrels with a mother 'shopping' her son when he is a criminal, as in this case, but she should have gone to the Police, not these quasi judicial thugs. That she did not says a lot about the history of the province, of which I know a little, being 50% Irish genetically, and having worked there for a short time, and having had a son go to University there. I had some disturbing experiences there, and some good ones. I also have a brother in law who served there in the RAF Regiment, who is very level headed, but has very strong feelings against the Northern Irish catholics and their supporters. But then he was exposed to vicious conduct - which some of his then opponents claim they too suffered.
What you have to watch with documentaries is that the act of filming is a bit like the effect of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Just as seeing the movement of a particle interferes with the track of the particle because a photon bounces off it to let you see it, so the presence of a camera can interfere with what is being seen on the screen. In some cases it has been reported that camera crews have caused the event being filmed so as to have something to film.
I can vouch for some of the ill feeling, having asked in a car spares place for a part for my car, and feeling the reaction when asked for the (UK) registration number. When I gave it the guy at the counter said "British registration?" in very venomous tones, and the crowded place went suddenly extremely quiet. It was in Londonderry, or Derry if you prefer, and on the border of the Creggan and the Bogside. Very uncomfortable indeed.

 

[Frequent visitor]

OD has intentionally misrepresented my words, that's his usual tactic, pay it no mind. I never said everyone is anti Brexit, my exact words were:

and I stand by it

I don't much care what they think, so long as they vote Brexit, as the public in the UK have said they want. The problem many MPs have is that they live in the great wen (London), and their social life revolves around people who regard themselves as a metropolitan elite. I do not doubt that these people (who are not any sort of elite, contrary to their feelings) are mainly anti Brexit. Social ostracization would follow if they do not go with the herd. Tough eh? But their status rests on the votes they got from the rest of us, and most of them are nothing without that. Some of the ex MP's after the last two elections are in a difficult state, particularly if they are married to someone who remained elected. My heart does not bleed for them: that is the name of the game.

That’s why yobs should not be allowed the vote

The principle on which democracy is predicated is that everyone has the vote. If you introduce qualifications (and things like property qualifications have been known, even recently, as in Northern Ireland) there can be all sorts of problems. If for example you imposed a qualification of being of at least average intelligence, half of the population would be disqualified. (I assume that the normal distribution curve applies, although questions have been raised on that front fairly recently,) This disenfranching - in this case of 'yobs' - would be welcomed by the metropolitan elites of this world, who of course know what is best for us all - they think!

 

[Frequent visitor]

Every single Torrie AND Labour politician is anti-brexit, some changed their tune once they saw which way the wind was blowing (Bojo for example), but they all wish to maintain the status quo more than anything else. It's the politician's way after all.

I don't know Dominic Raab from a bar of soap so I'm not going to claim I have direct proof that he personally is anti-brexit. I know he's a politician from a major party and I know what they all want though.

What they all want is power. There are a few honourable exceptions.

 

[Frequent visitor]

How many border agents to be trained in a few months to do that?

Or does he have equity in G4S or a competitor who'd be the government's preference to inspect (at an obviously exorbitant cost).

I am prepared to be recalled to the colours: I was trained fully by HMC&E.

 

[Frequent visitor]

Not really Brexit, but wasn't worth a thread shows the level of lunacy around:



https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/...ractors?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

I understand that the suggestion re using converted ro ro ships has been in progress for a while now. There are three fleet auxiliaries in Birkenhead shipyards having some sort of extended refits, but that may be nothing to do with it. You can see them on https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/home/centerx:-4.0/centery:53.4/zoom:9

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I don't much care what they think, so long as they vote Brexit, as the public in the UK have said they want. The problem many MPs have is that they live in the great wen (London), and their social life revolves around people who regard themselves as a metropolitan elite. I do not doubt that these people (who are not any sort of elite, contrary to their feelings) are mainly anti Brexit. Social ostracization would follow if they do not go with the herd. Tough eh? But their status rests on the votes they got from the rest of us, and most of them are nothing without that. Some of the ex MP's after the last two elections are in a difficult state, particularly if they are married to someone who remained elected. My heart does not bleed for them: that is the name of the game.

Not sure why you're sneering at London? Do their views on the issue not matter?

Also, not all MPs are from London you know...

 

[Dave]

Not sure why you're sneering at London? Do their views on the issue not matter?

Also, not all MPs are from London you know...

You didn’t know any MP who is a Brexit critic must be from London and all their constituencies are now counted as being in London.

Broxtowe is now next to Brixham, for example

 

[Frequent visitor]

Not sure why you're sneering at London? Do their views on the issue not matter?

Also, not all MPs are from London you know...

I was not sneering at London, if I were sneering at all. My target (if that is the right word) is the self styled metropolitan elite, who by definition live in the metropolis, but who do not comprise all the residents of the metropolis. (If any sneering is going on it is this 'elite' who are doing the sneering.) Their views do not necessarily accord with those of their fellow citizens of the metropolis. You can see specimens on TV chat shows of the condescending sort of people that do not accept the majority in the referendum.
The views of Londoners were taken into account in the referendum. They lost.

Nor did I say that all MPs are from London. But most have at least a substantial part of their social life there, for obvious reasons.

You didn’t know any MP who is a Brexit critic must be from London and all their constituencies are now counted as being in London.

Broxtowe is now next to Brixham, for example

I am sure that at least some of the anti Brexit MPs are from outside London.
Broxtowe is represented, or more accurately has as its MP, the ineffable Anna Soubry, and is in Nottinghamshire. It is perhaps nearer to Brixton than Brixham. Anna Soubry is quite vocally anti Brexit. Her constituency voted to leave the EU.

Brixham is part of the Totnes constituency, and voted to leave. The MP is a remainer.

The perils of sarcasm!

 

[Dave]

The perils of sarcasm!

Actually the perils of autocorrect.

 

[Frequent visitor]

Actually the perils of autocorrect.

I find it tedious on occasion, particularly when it uses US spellings!

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I was not sneering at London, if I were sneering at all. My target (if that is the right word) is the self styled metropolitan elite, who by definition live in the metropolis, but who do not comprise all the residents of the metropolis. (If any sneering is going on it is this 'elite' who are doing the sneering.) Their views do not necessarily accord with those of their fellow citizens of the metropolis. You can see specimens on TV chat shows of the condescending sort of people that do not accept the majority in the referendum.
The views of Londoners were taken into account in the referendum. They lost.

Would you consider people like Rees-Mogg part of this "elite"?

And ironically, in London, it's the Brexiteers whose views do not accord with their fellow citizens of the metropolis.

 

[Frequent visitor]

der

Would you consider people like Rees-Mogg part of this "elite"?

And ironically, in London, it's the Brexiteers whose views do not accord with their fellow citizens of the metropolis.

I do not consider the self styled metropolitan elite (c.f. the letter from Martha Lane Fox published in the Irish version of the Sunday Times on the Sunday after the referendum - 26th June, as far as I recall) to be an elite at all. It follows that I do not consider Rees-Mogg to be part of any metropolitan elite. I know little of him, except that he has claimed to be pro Brexit, and has been mentioned by some as a possible future Prime Minister. I see from Wiki that he is a catholic, and that that influences at least some of his views, which seems perfectly proper to me. He is an old Etonian, but I suppose he did not choose to be such. He has a modest degree at Oxford in a non science subject. He may well have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I prefer him to Cameron. And to Blair. And to Gordon Brown, and I think if I had any influence on the choice, which I do not, probably to Theresa May, who is soft pedalling Brexit. She also was responsible for Immigration policies which inconvenience me substantially as the husband of a boeremeisie. I have little time for her, except that she is easier on the eye than the arch frump Merkel, and that her policies are generally nearer to my views then those of the German frump. (I almost said 'Trump' then!)
I am no great fan of Thatcher, but she would have seen off the EU I feel.

I see no need for a 'deal' (how I dislike that word with its smart alec salesperson connotations!), given that the trade between the EU and the UK is heavily in favour of the EU. It is they who should be worried, not us. As for paying an exit fee, I strongly oppose that. The EU should in fact be refunding us a share of the EU assets we contributed towards.

Should trade dry up between us we will just have to become self sufficient again. Our manufacturing has lost out in many ways, as our trade balance indicates. Manufacturing is being run to suit the convenience of large international businesses, who pit governments against each other. This also affects SA, notably in the motor trade, where factories bid against other group factories to build particular models, extracting subsidies from Governments in the process. This leads to wage exploitation too. In Germany an underclass of Turkish nationals has been created to provide cheap labour for car manufacturers, and they tend to live in substandard conditions, which inevitably creates problems, which are now coming home to roost.

I see no reason why anyone in London, or elsewhere, should agree agree with all his neighbours. You give the impression that all Londoners are pro Brexit, but the referendum figures give the lie to that. The majority were remainder, but by no means all. I see no irony in the majority in most of the London area being remainer.

Incidentally I voted to stay in in the 1975 referendum.

 

[Dave]

I am no great fan of Thatcher, but she would have seen off the EU I feel.

I

Are you referring to Margaret Thatcher? The enthusiastic proponent of the EU and one of the driving forces behind the Single Market?

It's your job, the job of business, to gear yourselves up to take the opportunities which a single market of nearly 320 million people will offer.

Just think for a moment what a prospect that is. A single market without barriers—visible or invisible—giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world's wealthiest and most prosperous people.

Bigger than Japan. Bigger than the United States. On your doorstep. And with the Channel Tunnel to give you direct access to it.

It's not a dream. It's not a vision. It's not some bureaucrat's plan. It's for real. And it's only five years away.

You might say: weren't we supposed to have a common market already? Wasn't that the reason we joined Europe in the first place? Weren't we promised all this in 1973?

It's a fair question to ask. And the truthful answer is: Europe wasn't open for business. Underneath the rhetoric, the old barriers remained. Not just against the outside world, but between the European countries.

Not the classic barriers of tariffs, but the insiduous ones of differing national standards, various restrictions on the provision of services, exclusion of foreign firms from public contracts.

Now that's going to change. Britain has given the lead.

https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219

 

[Frequent visitor]

Are you referring to Margaret Thatcher? The enthusiastic proponent of the EU and one of the driving forces behind the Single Market?



https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219

That she was, but she negotiated hard for better terms. She was successful in that. Her successor, the present PM, believes in being reasonable (to take a charitable view), but is being skinned by the EU. They are in a tough position, with all their nice little (I mean big!) perks under threat if we leave. Balancing the EU budget will be a difficult task. They will need less staff too, as the work load will be reduced when we leave. It was Mrs. T. who famously said "there is no such thing as a job for life", but the EU do not believe that.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I do not consider the self styled metropolitan elite (c.f. the letter from Martha Lane Fox published in the Irish version of the Sunday Times on the Sunday after the referendum - 26th June, as far as I recall) to be an elite at all. It follows that I do not consider Rees-Mogg to be part of any metropolitan elite.

I still don't know who you're actually talking about. Basically anyone in London that voted remain is a "self styled metropolitan elite"?

Seems to be one of those meaningless phrases that gets thrown around.

I see no need for a 'deal' (how I dislike that word with its smart alec salesperson connotations!), given that the trade between the EU and the UK is heavily in favour of the EU. It is they who should be worried, not us. As for paying an exit fee, I strongly oppose that. The EU should in fact be refunding us a share of the EU assets we contributed towards.

Should trade dry up between us we will just have to become self sufficient again.

Yes, this is the delusion that Brexit proponents simply cannot seem to break out of, sadly.

I see no reason why anyone in London, or elsewhere, should agree agree with all his neighbours. You give the impression that all Londoners are pro Brexit, but the referendum figures give the lie to that. The majority were remainder, but by no means all. I see no irony in the majority in most of the London area being remainer.

What gives you this impression? I'm well aware London is pro-Remain. You were complaining that the "self-styled metropolitan elite" don't share the views of their fellow citizens on Brexit. But in London, it's the Brexiters who don't share the views of their fellow citizens, as it voted to remain.

 

[Frequent visitor]

I still don't know who you're actually talking about. Basically anyone in London that voted remain is a "self styled metropolitan elite"?

Seems to be one of those meaningless phrases that gets thrown around.



Yes, this is the delusion that Brexit proponents simply cannot seem to break out of, sadly.



What gives you this impression? I'm well aware London is pro-Remain. You were complaining that the "self-styled metropolitan elite" don't share the views of their fellow citizens on Brexit. But in London, it's the Brexiters who don't share the views of their fellow citizens, as it voted to remain.

The phrase was 'thrown around' by the person I mentioned. I had heard the phrase before in the newspapers. I added the 'self styled', but it was not my creation. It is not, I would give you, precisely defined.

I note that you think I am suffering from delusions. You do not say why you think so. We will have to disagree, but will know soon enough. I feel that the centralisation of sources of supply, whilst convenient to large businesses, is not desirable. An illustration would be the brewing trade in the 60s and 70s. The trade became concentrated in the hands of 5 major brewers. In 1966 there were just 5 small (what we used to call pub brewers) known to HMC&E in the UK. The brewers sought economies of scale by closing smaller breweries, and centralising production in a few larger breweries. That, and efforts to reduce duty by reducing the sugar content of the pre brewed liquor, caused a fall in quality, which led to the birth of CAMRA, and to the emergence of smaller breweries, now commonly called craft brewers. They in turn are now beginning to buy each other out!

Your final point seems a bit confused. London is in majority terms pro remain, that is clear. But in talking of the metropolitan elite as being out of step with their fellow citizens, it is surely true, as they were in the minority of their fellow UK citizens: the majority of the vote was pro brexit. They may not have been in the minority of the metropolis: indeed they were not: they were in the majority there. But London is not the UK.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

The phrase was 'thrown around' by the person I mentioned. I had heard the phrase before in the newspapers. I added the 'self styled', but it was not my creation. It is not, I would give you, precisely defined.

I note that you think I am suffering from delusions. You do not say why you think so. We will have to disagree, but will know soon enough. I feel that the centralisation of sources of supply, whilst convenient to large businesses, is not desirable. An illustration would be the brewing trade in the 60s and 70s. The trade became concentrated in the hands of 5 major brewers. In 1966 there were just 5 small (what we used to call pub brewers) known to HMC&E in the UK. The brewers sought economies of scale by closing smaller breweries, and centralising production in a few larger breweries. That, and efforts to reduce duty by reducing the sugar content of the pre brewed liquor, caused a fall in quality, which led to the birth of CAMRA, and to the emergence of smaller breweries, now commonly called craft brewers. They in turn are now beginning to buy each other out!

Your final point seems a bit confused. London is in majority terms pro remain, that is clear. But in talking of the metropolitan elite as being out of step with their fellow citizens, it is surely true, as they were in the minority of their fellow UK citizens: the majority of the vote was pro brexit. They may not have been in the minority of the metropolis: indeed they were not: they were in the majority there. But London is not the UK.

It's this part "It is they who should be worried, not us.", that's delusional, imo.

There's simply no good economic argument for that position.

With Brexit, both lose, but the UK loses more.

 

[scud]

@Frequent visitor

The uk brewing market has more to do with effects of capitalism and monopolies.. I don’t see the link between this and Brexit

 

[f2wohf]

Some trade facts as PM starts her 3 country “global Britain” Africa tour to open up new markets after Brexit. UK exports to...
South Africa

= £4.4bn
Nigeria

= £2.1bn
Kenya

= £1bn
To ALL of Africa

= £17.6bn
UK exports to the EU

= £243bn.

 

[The_Assimilator]

der
I do not consider the self styled metropolitan elite (c.f. the letter from Martha Lane Fox published in the Irish version of the Sunday Times on the Sunday after the referendum - 26th June, as far as I recall) to be an elite at all. It follows that I do not consider Rees-Mogg to be part of any metropolitan elite. I know little of him, except that he has claimed to be pro Brexit, and has been mentioned by some as a possible future Prime Minister. I see from Wiki that he is a catholic, and that that influences at least some of his views, which seems perfectly proper to me. He is an old Etonian, but I suppose he did not choose to be such. He has a modest degree at Oxford in a non science subject. He may well have been born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I prefer him to Cameron. And to Blair. And to Gordon Brown, and I think if I had any influence on the choice, which I do not, probably to Theresa May, who is soft pedalling Brexit. She also was responsible for Immigration policies which inconvenience me substantially as the husband of a boeremeisie. I have little time for her, except that she is easier on the eye than the arch frump Merkel, and that her policies are generally nearer to my views then those of the German frump. (I almost said 'Trump' then!)
I am no great fan of Thatcher, but she would have seen off the EU I feel.

I see no need for a 'deal' (how I dislike that word with its smart alec salesperson connotations!), given that the trade between the EU and the UK is heavily in favour of the EU. It is they who should be worried, not us. As for paying an exit fee, I strongly oppose that. The EU should in fact be refunding us a share of the EU assets we contributed towards.

Should trade dry up between us we will just have to become self sufficient again. Our manufacturing has lost out in many ways, as our trade balance indicates. Manufacturing is being run to suit the convenience of large international businesses, who pit governments against each other. This also affects SA, notably in the motor trade, where factories bid against other group factories to build particular models, extracting subsidies from Governments in the process. This leads to wage exploitation too. In Germany an underclass of Turkish nationals has been created to provide cheap labour for car manufacturers, and they tend to live in substandard conditions, which inevitably creates problems, which are now coming home to roost.

I see no reason why anyone in London, or elsewhere, should agree agree with all his neighbours. You give the impression that all Londoners are pro Brexit, but the referendum figures give the lie to that. The majority were remainder, but by no means all. I see no irony in the majority in most of the London area being remainer.

Incidentally I voted to stay in in the 1975 referendum.

You don't know anything about one of the foremost Tory proponents of Brexit, the backward and discriminatory views he stands for, how his financial position allows him to not have to worry about any negative effects of Brexit, and what he would gain financially from it. Not to mention he's one of the people who loves those immigration policies that you blame Theresa May for.

You don't understand that in a service-based economy like the UK, a trade deficit is not necessarily a bad thing.

You don't understand that there is no such thing as a "self-sufficient" country anymore. For example, good luck building a microchip design and manufacturing facility from scratch!

You don't understand that manufacturing is a dead corpse walking in the first world and that trying to save jobs or rebuild a local manufacturing base is laughable, especially in a service-driven economy. The only case that first-world manufacturing makes sense is if it's as automated as possible, and automation doesn't create many jobs, so it doesn't get votes, so politicians don't want to talk about it.

You don't understand critical, vital issues around Brexit and the motivations of the people pushing for it the hardest, yet you seem to support it. Why?