The Brexit Thread

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Don't think it's great for Bojo to resign, it'll be passing the buck along too soon. He needs to deliver Brexit as promised, be it deal or no deal.
If he is to deliver brexit soon it will have to either be the deal that the EU has on the table (as negotiated by T. May), or he will have to come up with an alternative to the Irish backstop that the EU accepts, which is unlikely. No deal is off the table now (provided the EU grants the extension that the new bill will ask for). Wouldn't it be hilarious if May's deal goes through in the end, after all the kak they gave her. No wonder she's smiling.
 
Even the Torygraph coming out with criticism.

Dominic Cummings personally sabotaged a compromise plan put forward by the Conservative MPs who went on to rebel against the Government, the Telegraph has learnt.

The Prime Minister's chief adviser launched a foul-mouth tirade against former business secretary Greg Clark after he proposed the government set aside a day after the October European summit for MPs to vote on a no-deal Brexit.

The proposal would have meant MPs would have been able to see the shape of Boris Johnson's negotiation plan before voting on whether a further extension to the negotiations was necessary.

The Telegraph understands Mr Clark made the suggestion during the rebels' meeting with Mr Johnson on Tuesday, and it was enthusiastically received by his colleagues.

The Prime Minister told Mr Clark someone from his team would be in contact to discuss the idea further, and later that afternoon he received a call from Mr Cummings.

According to a source in the rebel group, Mr Cummings said: "You Tory MPs need to get it through your f---ing heads that we are leaving the EU on Oct 31."

The Telegraph has been told by two sources in the rebel group that relations between Mr Johnson and Mr Cummings are becoming strained thanks to the behaviour of his chief adviser.

One of the 21 rebels said they are hearing of “huge tensions in Downing street" following Tuesday's defeat.

“This was not supposed to be the way it worked," the MP said. "He could well find himself in a situation where this bill has passed and he cannot get his election, so he is trapped.

“None of this would have happened the way it did this week.

"Proroguing Parliament set the cat among the pigeons. It turned our group from a rabble to a fully formed force.”

 

Johnson is so far out of his depth he is drowning.

But good to see the rebel Tories face down these bullies. It reminds me that not all Tories are self serving elitists, some do have the good of the country at heart and are prepared to prove it by sacrificing their careers. Which of course, flip flipper Johnson would never be prepared to do.
 
Circle Jerk detected. Countermeasures deployed:


Queen's Consent

I vote for the Eurointelligence second possibility, Queen's Consent.

Queen's Consent is different from Royal Assent.

I never heard of QC. I suspect 99.9% have not heard of it either.

But my overriding premise has always been that the Johnson team knows what it is doing.

I have amusing comments from UK expats telling me things like a filibuster is impossible, now bragging that the filibuster is broken, no doubt without even know it was the Johnson Tories who broke it.
Queen's Consent Legal Opinion

Let's investigate a Legal Opinion on Queen's Consent.

Emphasis is original, not mine.

Queen’s Consent is a procedural requirement for any Bill passing through the Commons and Lords where the terms of the Bill would ‘affect’ the exercise of any royal prerogative if it was passed. The effect on the prerogative must be more than de minimis.
Queen’s Consent is normally a formality, because the government usually proposes (or more accurately for Private Members Bills, acquiesces to) all Bills that are successfully voted through both Houses. The current scenario could see a situation where a Bill passes in the teeth of trenchant opposition from the government.
Prerogative powers are legacy powers of the Crown that are now mainly exercised by the government. Conducting foreign affairs, and in particular the power to agree treaties and operate treaty powers, is an important part of the prerogative and is the relevant power for this post. Under that power, the UK government has agreed new treaties, and particular laws, at EU level over the last 46 years (and indeed continues to do so).
The story behind the passage of Cooper-Letwin is more complex than many realise. The drafting of the original version was masterly. Cooper-Letwin mandated the then Prime Minister (PM) to seek an extension to the Article 50 process. The word ‘seek’ is crucial. The reason it is so crucial is that it allowed the argument to be made that Queen’s Consent was not necessary for the Bill. This was because to ‘seek’ an extension does not actually have any effect in terms of changing the date of exit at EU level. Seeking an extension arguably does not ‘affect’ prerogative exercise as a matter of law.
The sheer cleverness of the drafting of Cooper-Letwin rests on the fact that it left entirely open what would happen after the extension was ‘sought’. The negotiations and agreement of a new exit date were without doubt exercises of prerogative power and any Bill that sought to regulate or supplant those aspects of securing an extension would certainly have required Queen’s Consent during the passage of the Bill.
The issue of Queen’s Consent was taken very seriously during the passage of the Cooper-Letwin Bill and was so controversial it resulted in a [formal ruling](https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2019-04-03/debates/0F559E56-033F-…(Withdrawal%29(No5%29Bill#contribution-DC5CD990-C745-4B29-825C-B2404A764AF4) by the Speaker. That ruling made clear that the original draft of the Bill did not require Queen’s Consent.
The Benn-Burt bill
If Benn-Burt had precisely followed the format of Cooper-Letwin and only mandated that the government seek an extension, then it would have placed no obligation on the PM to agree or accept any extension. That would remain part of the prerogative power to be exercised as the PM sees fit in his negotiations with the EU27.
However, Benn-Burt goes much further than Cooper-Letwin. It mandates that the PM must not only seek but also agree to an extension, either 31 January 2020 or another date if the Commons approves a date suggested by the EU27. Mandating that the PM agrees to an extension manifestly affects the prerogative. It is difficult to see how requesting Queen’s Consent can be avoided for this Bill. If so, it follows that the government must agree to the Bill being passed during Third Reading.
What is most fascinating about this dilemma is that the Cooper-Letwin prototype gave such clear and unequivocal evidence of where the bright line on Queen’s Consent is actually drawn by the legal experts who understand, and indeed determine, these issues within the Commons. Can there be any doubt that if a stronger wording could have been secured without triggering Queen’s Consent then such a wording would have been used last time?
Conclusion
The proponents of a new Bill to prevent No Deal are caught on the horns of a dilemma. If they had drafted a Bill that only mandated the PM to seek an extension, the PM would be left free to refuse to agreeor accept any extension in negotiations with the EU27.
But the actual Bill tries to impose a requirement that the PM either agrees to 31 January 2020 or agrees any new exit date suggested by the EU27 (as long as a motion approving the alternative date in the House of Commons is passed). House of Commons procedural rules mean that the government is required formally to approve the Bill by affirming ‘Queen’s Consent’ to the Bill at the Third Reading stage. This is because the power to agree or accept an extension is normally exercised using a prerogative power. If passed, this statute would have the legal effect, by whatever means, of forcing the PM to agree an extension to the Article 50 process would manifestly ‘affect’ the prerogative for the purposes of the relevant test as to whether Queen’s Consent is required.
Too Clever

The Benn Bill requires Johnson's approval. What do you think the odds of that are?

That's the long and short of it.

It's unclear if Benn knew this or not. It's possible he did and hoped Johnson would not catch it. More likely, the drafters of the Benn bill did not know.

Either way, the point is moot.

There is no way to force Johnson to approve this. And he won't, even if Bercow demands.

Benn can take it to the courts, but the law is clear.
Benn is Dead

I was mocked this evening "So, spin this all you want. You were wrong about all the procedures in parliament. Have YOU gone back to study parliamentary rules and UK law?"

Mind you, this is from the person who told me a filibuster in the House of Lords was not even possible.

I never presume I know everything. Clearly, I don't.

However, I have high confidence the Johnson team picked the dates very carefully and for a reason, even if I did not understand the reason.

Benn is dead unless it's part of a deal as per Eurointelligence option three.
Respectable Opinions

I highly respect the opinions of Eurointelligence.

Q: Why?

A: Because the outfit is staunchly pro-remain.

It's easy to find opinions supporting your view. It's damn hard to find someone saying what you want to hear when they disagree with the outcome.
 
Circle Jerk detected. Countermeasures deployed:


Sorry, Xarog, I don’t see the Queen getting involved in any form of veto of this, it’s not worth her job to do anything but rubber stamp any bill sent to her by Parliament.
 
Sorry, Xarog, I don’t see the Queen getting involved in any form of veto of this, it’s not worth her job to do anything but rubber stamp any bill sent to her by Parliament.
However, Benn-Burt goes much further than Cooper-Letwin. It mandates that the PM must not only seek but also agree to an extension, either 31 January 2020 or another date if the Commons approves a date suggested by the EU27. Mandating that the PM agrees to an extension manifestly affects the prerogative. It is difficult to see how requesting Queen’s Consent can be avoided for this Bill. If so, it follows that the government must agree to the Bill being passed during Third Reading.

I don't think the Queen's rubber stamp is what the crux of the issue revolves around...
 
I don't think the Queen's rubber stamp is what the crux of the issue revolves around...

The crux being that the ruling has already been made that Queen‘s consent is not required?


.

The Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow, has ruled that The Queen’s consent is not required for the bill being debated in the House of Commons on Wednesday which seeks to block a no-deal Brexit.

This partly scuppers the government’s hopes to block the bill from coming into law should it be passed.

The Queen’s consent and Royal Assent are different things and shouldn’t be confused.

Queen’s Consent is required before Parliament is able to debate a bill affecting royal prerogatives.

 
What are you on about now? EU legislation that enforces no deal come 31 October? The EU has actually indicated they are open to another extension.
What are YOU on about? Fixating on dates and the fact that the EU is all too willing to roll over when my point is / was / remains that NOBODY in the UK can EVER take no deal off the table, because the power to do that is simply NOT in THEIR hands.

Get it now?
 
So can you tell me what Boris Johnson's solution to the Irish border problem is? The EU is not digging their heels in over this
ok confirmed, you're high, sorry my bad for trying to reason with an intoxicated person

once you come back from your high read this bit slowly:

the EU insisting on something without providing any alternatives is exactly the same thing as the UK insisting on not having that thing without providing any alternatives

it is a game, but make no mistake, the one party isn't somehow more negotiable than the other, they have both dug heels in, the EU has just been doing it for so long perhaps you have forgotten, it took the UK a couple of years longer to find their balls is all
 
What are YOU on about? Fixating on dates and the fact that the EU is all too willing to roll over when my point is / was / remains that NOBODY in the UK can EVER take no deal off the table, because the power to do that is simply NOT in THEIR hands.

Get it now?
Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of making up BS about EU legislation that enforces no deal come 31 October? The UK can take no deal at the end of October off the table and the EU is likely to give them another extension.
 
The crux being that the ruling has already been made that Queen‘s consent is not required?


.



Well, technically the queen already approved the suspension of parliament. So it can be called a royal prorogueative
 
Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of making up BS about EU legislation that enforces no deal come 31 October?
If you go back and read that is exactly what I said. My apologies for daring to add a bit of nuance ... EU legislation enforces no deal in the absence of a deal by the time the deadline rolls round. The current deadline is 31 October, now whether they extend or not, and whether they enter negotiations again or not, the fact remains that no deal is ALWAYS a possibility and therefor it is completely f-ing stupid of the UK parliament to pretend otherwise.

The UK can take no deal at the end of October off the table
No they cannot, see above

and the EU is likely to give them another extension.
If that happens it is the EU that delays the matter, "no deal" remains on the table, the UK has not done a damn thing about it seeing as the UK has no say in the matter whatsoever.

and yet they waste time passing bills pretending they have a say, it's a circus :ROFL:
 
If you go back and read that is exactly what I said. My apologies for daring to add a bit of nuance ... EU legislation enforces no deal in the absence of a deal by the time the deadline rolls round. The current deadline is 31 October, now whether they extend or not, and whether they enter negotiations again or not, the fact remains that no deal is ALWAYS a possibility and therefor it is completely f-ing stupid of the UK parliament to pretend otherwise.


No they cannot, see above


If that happens it is the EU that delays the matter, "no deal" remains on the table, the UK has not done a damn thing about it seeing as the UK has no say in the matter whatsoever.

and yet they waste time passing bills pretending they have a say, it's a circus :ROFL:
You're missing the point. When they say they are taking no-deal off the table they are talking about within their own parliament, in their own debates, in their own decision making process. Which is exactly what they are doing. Taking no deal off the table. It's completely within their control. Yes, they might still end up leaving without a deal but it won't be because they specifically chose that option, but because they have no choice left anymore - the choice to leave with no deal has been taken off the table.
 
Don't think it's great for Bojo to resign, it'll be passing the buck along too soon. He needs to deliver Brexit as promised, be it deal or no deal.

There have bee numerous chances to pass a bill through Parliament that would have ensured Brexit go ahead. The Brexiteer zealots voted it down each time.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Why didn't you say that in the first place instead of making up BS about EU legislation that enforces no deal come 31 October? The UK can take no deal at the end of October off the table and the EU is likely to give them another extension.

Constantly arguing about Brexit but never actually doing it is maybe not the worst idea. :p
 
You're missing the point. When they say they are taking no-deal off the table they are talking about within their own parliament, in their own debates, in their own decision making process. Which is exactly what they are doing. Taking no deal off the table. It's completely within their control. Yes, they might still end up leaving without a deal but it won't be because they specifically chose that option, but because they have no choice left anymore - the choice to leave with no deal has been taken off the table.
nothing is off the table even from a UK perspective, they can merely delay / filibuster until the deadline passes and "no deal" would become a reality

literally the ONLY thing they achieve by passing bills to "block" no deal is the broadcast to the EU that they may stick it in deeper, because their opponents are clueless
 
Yes, it's part of negotiations but is not, in itself, a negotiation. Don't be daft, I mean we are disagreeing now, aren't we? I suppose you think we are negotiating :rolleyes:

what the actual ****. we are not here to negotiate anything.

you agree, disagree, compromise, etc. during negotiations. they were attempting to negotiate, not us. if you get a cut on your arm, do you put a tampon on it? geezus

the twat in the video blatantly says that them disagreeing means there is no negotiation, in other words they expect all their terms to be agreed with. they are the ones that call no negotiations because of their terms not agreed with. he actually says it.

have you ever negotiated for a salary or do you just accept what they offer? dont be daft.

The EU has actually indicated they are open to another extension.

exactly, the eu will try delay brexit indefinitely, they do not want it to happen. keep extending it until they get what they want.

you cannot possibly believe high profile or political figures have no vested interests in brexit not happening.
 
Bojo gets a bit of good news for a change.

A legal challenge over Prime Minister Boris Johnson's decision to suspend Parliament has been rejected, High Court judges have ruled.

The case was brought by businesswoman Gina Miller, who argued the move was "an unlawful abuse of power".

Rejecting Ms Miller's case, Lord Justice Burnett said she could immediately appeal because of the important points of law at stake.

The appeal is expected to be heard at the Supreme Court on 17 September.

 
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