The Brexit Thread

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www.theguardian.com

Revealed: the EU's point-by-point rejection of Johnson's Brexit plan

Exclusive: Leaked papers obtained by the Guardian show extent of fundamental objections Brussels has raised
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
The European Union’s full devastating point-by-point rejection of Boris Johnson’s Brexit proposals for the Irish border has been revealed in documents obtained by the Guardian.

Leaked documents lay bare the scale of the multiple faults highlighted to David Frost, the prime minister’s chief negotiator, during the recent talks.
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Clueless, or shameless liars banking on hard Brexit?
 
OrbitalDawn said:
Clueless, or shameless liars banking on hard Brexit?
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or even shameless liars profiting from a hard Brexit?

“Johnson is backed by speculators who have bet billions on a hard Brexit – and there is only one option that works for them: a crash-out no-deal that sends the currency tumbling and inflation soaring,” Hammond wrote in the Times.

Downing Street has refused to comment on the claim.

Guto Bebb, a former Tory minister who was thrown out of the party for opposing a no-deal Brexit, said: “The dubious financiers who supported the ‘leave’ campaign and the prime minister’s leadership campaign are betting against Britain. The PM should put the interests of the country first rather than facilitating a financial bonanza for a few.”
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www.theguardian.com

Calls for inquiry into claims Johnson backers benefit from no-deal Brexit

Cabinet secretary urged to look into conflict of interest fears raised by Philip Hammond and Rachel Johnson
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
It's quite obvious, unless your name is Theresa May or you are an irrational bremoaner ... are you either of those? :unsure:
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No neither. I just don't know what you're trying to say. Everyone has always known a no-deal would be bad for both the UK and the EU, this is not news. That's why they just spent 3 years trying to negotiate a deal. So what's your point?
 
C4Cat said:
No neither. I just don't know what you're trying to say. Everyone has always known a no-deal would be bad for both the UK and the EU, this is not news. That's why they just spent 3 years trying to negotiate a deal. So what's your point?
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Couple of things there, every bremoaner shouts about doomsday for the UK and pretends the EU will be fine, they won't be, far from it. And to say everyone knows this is dishonest, go have a read through this thread to see how many still believe the EU will be ok while the UK is doomed.

The EU has not been negotiating for the past 3 years, they've been issuing ultimatums and bremoaners fell for it.

Now that the UK at least to some extent pretends to be prepared for hard brexit, one of the biggest industries in the EU's biggest economy is publicly fearful of hard brexit for the very first time and suddenly the EU is not issuing ultimatums anymore.

So what happens when you are actually prepared for hard brexit instead of shooting yourself in both feet and removing the only leverage you have from the negotiating table? The EU stops issuing ultimatums and becomes willing to actually negotiate for the first time in 3 years.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
Couple of things there, every bremoaner shouts about doomsday for the UK and pretends the EU will be fine, they won't be, far from it. And to say everyone knows this is dishonest, go have a read through this thread to see how many still believe the EU will be ok while the UK is doomed.

The EU has not been negotiating for the past 3 years, they've been issuing ultimatums and bremoaners fell for it.

Now that the UK at least to some extent pretends to be prepared for hard brexit, one of the biggest industries in the EU's biggest economy is publicly fearful of hard brexit for the very first time and suddenly the EU is not issuing ultimatums anymore.

So what happens when you are actually prepared for hard brexit instead of shooting yourself in both feet and removing the only leverage you have from the negotiating table? The EU stops issuing ultimatums and becomes willing to actually negotiate for the first time in 3 years.
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Speaking for myself, I've always maintained, in this thread, that no deal would be bad for both the UK and the EU. The difference is that the UK is the one who created this mess in the first place. It's extremely unlikely the EU will accept this new deal from Johnson, unfortunately, so I don't think you'll find a subservient, grovelling EU any time soon. The deal between Mays government and the EU was negotiated, despite what you may think, and is still the best possible deal available for both the UK and the EU (other than revoking Article 50 altogether)
 
C4Cat said:
the UK is the one who created this mess in the first place
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no that would be the EU, if the EU did not force its laws and ideas on its members (something that was never part of the original charter fyi) there would be no reason to leave, the EU created the situation that makes countries want to leave, the UK is not alone in this either, it has been openly discussed in Greece, Italy and France

C4Cat said:
The deal between Mays government and the EU was negotiated, despite what you may think
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Rolling over and accepting every demand the other side makes at the "negotiation table" is not negotiation, it is capitulation, despite what you may think.
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
no that would be the EU, if the EU did not force its laws and ideas on its members (something that was never part of the original charter fyi) there would be no reason to leave, the EU created the situation that makes countries want to leave, the UK is not alone in this either, it has been openly discussed in Greece, Italy and France


Rolling over and accepting every demand the other side makes at the "negotiation table" is not negotiation, it is capitulation, despite what you may think.
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How does the EU force its laws and ideas on its members? Are you saying the EU has a mind of it's own, independent of it's members? That the members of the EU have no say in the decisions made and are not active participants in the decision making process? Do you think the UK had no say in any EU decisions made?
There will always be nationalists and narrow minded patriots in any country who think their national identity is of utmost importance. Greece was saved by the EU (despite their economic difficulties), Italy and France were at war before the EU. Whatever you nationalists think, Europe and the world is better off with the EU than without it. As for 'rolling over and accepting every demand' - Johnson's deal is almost exactly the same as May's except it's trying to replace the Irish backstop with something far worse and completely unrealistic. That is the only difference.
 
C4Cat said:
How does the EU force its laws and ideas on its members?
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uhm, Europarl website, EU legislation specifically enforces that any member MUST implement EU laws that the EU determines to be necessary

you are aware that EU members must enact certain EU laws within their own laws right?!?
 
NarrowBandFtw said:
uhm, Europarl website, EU legislation specifically enforces that any member MUST implement EU laws that the EU determines to be necessary

you are aware that EU members must enact certain EU laws within their own laws right?!?
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Of course, yet EU member states represent themselves in this Parliament and vote on the various legislation that is proposed and have the power to veto them.

The UK has only voted against 2% of proposed EU legislation.

What gets conflated though is the UK members of the EU parliament may have voted yes on matters that the average british citizen may have thought should have been a No. This gets distelled through the Sun and Daily mail as the EU forcing legislation down the throats of the UK.

The UK had a say in every piece of EU legislation. After they leave, they will have no say, but will in all liklehood have to abide by them still.
 
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