The Brexit Thread

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I know other sensible people on this thread have raised it, but how do you think Scotland will be negotiated, given that the argument for sovereignty / NOT Brexit is so similar to Brexit?
But if the SNP vote is interpreted as a referendum on that point, the majority is far more compelling than the original Brexit...
 
Spizz said:
Another South African who doesn’t know the difference between communism and socialism.
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They both will f-up the economy beyond saving because they both go against human nature.

The closest thing that ever came to a peaceful socialist utopia was the Kibbutz and they all eventually turned into capitalistic communities.
One of the ideologues behind Corbynism, Jon Lansman, founder of Momentum, lived on a kibbutz in his youth. He admired for long afterwards ‘the sense of community and the radicalism of it’, and has called his time in a kibbutz ‘a very politicising experience’. You can see the allure: living in a collective of about 450 people, working the land as one big family, from each according to his ability to each according to his needs. The aims of the kibbutz — the forging of a collectivist mindset and the rearing of generations prepared to work for socialism and Zionism — are well-known. But what’s less known is the fate of the project: it turned out to be a complete, unalloyed disaster.

Joshua Muravchik, who has documented the rise and fall of the kibbutz, explains that the first sign of trouble in paradise was the revolt against collective child-rearing. To break the tyranny of the bourgeois family unit, children were raised in separate houses, where they lived and slept. Some enjoyed it, but others have described the terror of being ripped from their parents, left to the mercy of gangs of other children. Family ties were seen as the nemesis of perfect collectivism. Indeed, Jon Lansman had only one complaint about his kibbutz: ‘I was disappointed,’ he mused, ‘by the absence of children’s houses’ — he had hoped his kibbutz would include a separate building for children to be honed into impeccable young socialists.

There was another powerful force that kibbutz utopians had not taken into consideration: women’s preference for choosing their own outfits. In a traditional kibbutz, clothes were deemed to be collective property. Dirty clothes were handed to a central laundry, and clean ones were handed out in exchange — but no tabs were kept on whose were whose. Women hated it and demanded cash allowances to buy their own clothes. As the pioneers warned, this opened up a Pandora’s Box of savage individualism. If you could own clothes, why not toiletries or furniture or even individual refrigerators?
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https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/11/the-rise-and-disastrous-fall-of-the-kibbutz/

When socialism fails, it will default to capitalism, when communism fail, it defaults to gulags.

South Africa will do the former when Eskom finally kicks the bucket.
 
bobbyb said:
I know other sensible people on this thread have raised it, but how do you think Scotland will be negotiated, given that the argument for sovereignty / NOT Brexit is so similar to Brexit?
But if the SNP vote is interpreted as a referendum on that point, the majority is far more compelling than the original Brexit...
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They can f-off out the UK. Labour will never win another election without Scotland.
 
jack_spratt said:
This election result clearly shows that the British people want Brexit.

Case closed people.
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Yes, exactly right. Regardless of all the other BS attached to this by Corbyn and Swindon, the main thing they offered everyone was a chance to stop Brexit - in the case of LibDems, erase it completely.

If so many people were anti-Brexit after the fact - even people who voted Leave - as media (social and otherwise) and even this forum would have us believe, then why have so many millions now decided to not take that offer from Labour and the LibDems? And this, 3 years after the referendum, now that all the "truth" has come out, and everyone has had time to assess all the "facts", too.
 
The Voice said:
Yes, exactly right. Regardless of all the other BS attached to this by Corbyn and Swindon, the main thing they offered everyone was a chance to stop Brexit - in the case of LibDems, erase it completely.

If so many people were anti-Brexit after the fact - even people who voted Leave - as media (social and otherwise) and even this forum would have us believe, then why have so many millions now decided to not take that offer from Labour and the LibDems? And this, 3 years after the referendum, now that all the "truth" has come out, and everyone has had time to assess all the "facts", too.
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Ummm it was a General Election, not a Brexit re-think referendum.

Regardless of that, the country has overwhelmingly voted, now the government must crack on with what it promised and get it done and stop cocking around.
 
konfab said:
They can f-off out the UK. Labour will never win another election without Scotland.
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I can understand why Labour campaigned (and would campaign) to keep Scotland, but which PM wants to be remembered for breaking up the UK?
 
ToxicBunny said:
Ummm it was a General Election, not a Brexit re-think referendum.

Regardless of that, the country has overwhelmingly voted, now the government must crack on with what it promised and get it done and stop cocking around.
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You are extremely naïve if you think Brexit had nothing to do with the outcome. But whatever makes your tears have more meaning I guess
 
bobbyb said:
I can understand why Labour campaigned (and would campaign) to keep Scotland, but which PM wants to be remembered for breaking up the UK?
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I would rather remember a PM that understands the concept and implements the principle of liberty. Not doing so is denying reality.
 
Pitbull said:
You are extremely naïve if you think Brexit had nothing to do with the outcome. But whatever makes your tears have more meaning I guess
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Did I say it had nothing to do with the outcome?

I am not quite so binary in my outlook on things.
 
bobbyb said:
I can understand why Labour campaigned (and would campaign) to keep Scotland, but which PM wants to be remembered for breaking up the UK?
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I can certainly support Scotland trying to leave again, if they wanted independence, but leaving the UK to be part of the EU is stupid.
 
ToxicBunny said:
Ummm it was a General Election, not a Brexit re-think referendum.

Regardless of that, the country has overwhelmingly voted, now the government must crack on with what it promised and get it done and stop cocking around.
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And what were Labour and the LibDem's biggest drawing card? Their promise to stop Brexit if they won. They handed a second chance - effectively a second referendum - to everyone on a plate, and no-one took it. Sure, their die-hard supporters bought into it (they would), but they didn't win over very many Conservatives, or even neutrals. According to the election results, it was probably one of the things that cost them the most support.

People want democracy challenged - it keeps it healthy. They don't want democratically determined outcomes erased or undone. It was a terrible tactic by the opposition and it backfired spectacularly.

And if the election had nothing to do with Brexit, it wouldn't have taken up dozens of pages in the thread. This was the Brexit election.
 
rietrot said:
I can certainly support Scotland trying to leave again, if they wanted independence, but leaving the UK to be part of the EU is stupid.
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You have to let people do stupid things.

All the UK should do is waive them bye-bye. Then when the EU doesn't want them, UK takes them back, pays off their debts, and they return with less seats in parliament.
 
The Voice said:
And what were Labour and the LibDem's biggest drawing card? Their promise to stop Brexit if they won. They handed a second chance - effectively a second referendum - to everyone on a plate, and no-one took it. Sure, their die-hard supporters bought into it (they would), but they didn't win over very many Conservatives, or even neutrals. According to the election results, it was probably one of the things that cost them the most support.

People want democracy challenged - it keeps it healthy. They don't want democratically determined outcomes erased or undone. It was a terrible tactic by the opposition and it backfired spectacularly.

And if the election had nothing to do with Brexit, it wouldn't have taken up dozens of pages in the thread. This was the Brexit election.
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Labour did not promise to stop Brexit.

From their manifesto -

Labour will give the people the final say on Brexit. Within three months of coming to power, a Labour government will secure a sensible deal. And within six months, we will put that deal to a public vote alongside the option to remain. A Labour government will implement whatever the people decide.
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