The Brexit Thread

[Vorastra]

Let me spell it out for you. I’m saying the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a political union of four countries.

So let me ask you as a starting point for further discussion so there is no confusion. Are you saying the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is one country?

I've edited my comment. Reread and then edit your comment accordingly.

 

[Spizz]

Literally what are you talking about.
The UK is a country. Scotland is a devolved region within the UK. It has no sovereignty. All of it's power is bestowed to it by the UK.
Scotland is not a country.

So when Scotland entered into this political union it somehow ceased to become a country? Same as England? Is England also not a country?

 

[Vorastra]

So when Scotland entered into this political union it somehow ceased to become a country? Same as England? Is England also not a country?

I think you missed the rest of the edit.

Before we get confused do you agree that: Country is defined as: "a nation with its own sovereign government, occupying a particular territory".

 

[Spizz]

I've edited my comment. Reread and then edit your comment accordingly.

No need. Answer my last post.

 

[Vorastra]

No need. Answer my last post.

Then I assume you agree.

So when Scotland entered into this political union it somehow ceased to become a country? Same as England? Is England also not a country?

Behold the Articles of Union.
Back to my original point. There is no legal basis for Scotland to leave on its own accord.

Article 1 states "That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England, shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of Great Britain."

Article 2 provided for the succession of the House of Hanover, and for Protestant succession as set out in the English Act of Settlement of 1701.

Article 3 provided for the creation of one unified Parliament of Great Britain.

Article 4 gave the subjects of Great Britain freedom of trade and navigation within the kingdom and "the Dominions and Plantations thereunto belonging", meaning what were then the English overseas possessions.

Articles 5 to 15, 17, & 18 dealt with aspects of trade, movement, taxes, regulation, and other matters, to ensure equal treatment for all subjects of the new kingdom.

Article 16 required the introduction of a common currency for Great Britain, subsequently effected through the Scottish recoinage of 1707–1710.

Article 19 provided for the continuation of Scotland's separate legal system.

Article 20 provided for the protection after the union of a number of heritable offices, superiorities, heritable jurisdictions, offices for life, and jurisdictions for life.

Article 21 provided for the protection of the rights of the royal burghs.

Article 22 provided for Scotland to be represented in the new Parliament of Great Britain by sixteen of its peers and forty-five members of the House of Commons.

Article 23 provided for Scotland's peers to have the same rights as English peers in any trial of peers.

Article 24 provided for the creation of a new Great Seal of Great Britain, different from those of England and Scotland, but it also provided that the Great Seal of England was to be used until this had been created.

Article 25 provided that all laws of either kingdom that may be inconsistent with the Articles in the Treaty were declared void.

 

[Vorastra]

Since it seems we're arguing what the word "country" means.
I'm reverting back to my original point before I got sidetracked.

Scotland cannot leave unless Westminster says so.

Show me why I'm wrong.

 

[Spizz]

Then I assume you agree.


Behold the Articles of Union.
Back to my original point. There is no legal basis for Scotland to leave on its own accord.

I did indeed miss the edit. So no I don’t agree.

Wikipedia says it nicer than I ever could.

“A country is a distinct territorial body or political entity. It is often referred to as the land of an individual's birth, residence or citizenship. ... Countries can refer both to sovereign states and to other political entities, while other times it can refer only to states.”

Seems a wee bit more forgiving than your definition. Which came from where exactly?

And show me where in the articles of the union you posted does it say Scotland ceases to become a country? I see lots of mentions about Scotland and England becoming one kingdom, but nothing that alludes to anything that backs up your argument.

 

[Vorastra]

I did indeed miss the edit. So no I don’t agree.

Wikipedia says it nicer than I ever could.

“A country is a distinct territorial body or political entity. It is often referred to as the land of an individual's birth, residence or citizenship. ... Countries can refer both to sovereign states and to other political entities, while other times it can refer only to states.”

Seems a wee bit more forgiving than your definition. Which came from where exactly?

And show me where in the articles of the union you posted does it say Scotland ceases to become a country? I see lots of mentions about Scotland and England becoming one kingdom, but nothing that alludes to anything that backs up your argument.

Then that's the issue, we don't agree on what a country is and thus we're miscommunicating.

Let's reconcile.

Is South Africa and Scotland administratively equal?

@Cray join.

 

[Spizz]

Since it seems we're arguing what the word "country" means.
I'm reverting back to my original point before I got sidetracked.

Scotland cannot leave unless Westminster says so.

Show me why I'm wrong.

I’m not saying that at all. It’s clearly part of the rules of the political union and a huge bone of contention within Scotland.

That is the same people of Scotland who never agreed to join any union but were rather sold out by the landowners.

 

[Vorastra]

I’m not saying that at all. It’s clearly part of the rules of the political union and a huge bone of contention within Scotland.

That is the same people of Scotland who never agreed to join any union but were rather sold out by the landowners.

This wasn't directed at you.

That is the same people of Scotland who never agreed to join any union but were rather sold out by the landowners.

 

[Spizz]

Then that's the issue, we don't agree on what a country is and thus we're miscommunicating.

Let's reconcile.

Is South Africa and Scotland administratively equal?

@Cray join.

No. Who said they were or had to be?

 

[Vorastra]

No. Who said they were or had to be?

I want to define.

So what is South Africa? Not a country, since Scotland is also a country (I'm conceding this term with you) and not administratively equal.
The UK and South Africa are administratively equal.

What word can we use?

Nation?
Sovereign nation?
Sovereign country?

 

[Spizz]

I want to define.

So what is South Africa? Not a country, since Scotland is also a country (I'm conceding this term with you) and not administratively equal.
The UK and South Africa are administratively equal.

What word can we use?

Nation?
Sovereign nation?
Sovereign country?

How about we just stick with the word “country”.

Is there a need to change it?

 

[Vorastra]

How about we just stick with the word “country”.

Is there a need to change it?

Clearly there is since we seem to be equating Scotland, the UK, and every other "country" as if they're on equal footing.
Scotland does not interact with the US, the same way South Africa would or the UK would.

So I want to agree on a word we can use. Every single one of my points are still correct, but it seems that we differ on what these administrative places are called.

Example, Scotland is not equal to South Africa. South Africa is equal to the UK, or the US, or Russia.

What word can we use to differentiate Scotland from these others?

 

[Spizz]

Clearly there is since we seem to be equating Scotland, the UK, and every other "country" as if they're on equal footing.
Scotland does not interact with the US, the same way South Africa would or the UK would.

So I want to agree on a word we can use. Every single one of my points are still correct, but it seems that we differ on what these administrative places are called.

Example, Scotland is not equal to South Africa. South Africa is equal to the UK, or the US, or Russia.

What word can we use to differentiate Scotland from these others?

I’m not equating anyone to anyone else. That’s your doing, I’m quite happy with the definitions. So I’ll stick with country and hopefully before too long the question will be irrelevant wrt to Scotland anyway.

 

[Vorastra]

I’m not equating anyone to anyone else. That’s your doing, I’m quite happy with the definitions.

Interesting. So with my definition of country. I stand by Scotland not being a country.

So I’ll stick with country and hopefully before too long the question will be irrelevant wrt to Scotland anyway.

Westminster would be out of their mind to ever allow it.

 

[Spizz]

Interesting. So with my definition of country. I stand by Scotland not being a country.


Westminster would be out of their mind to ever allow it.

With your tenuous grasp of Scottish and U.K. politics, I wouldn’t expect you to realise how gravely unjust that statement is.

 

[Vorastra]

With your tenuous grasp of Scottish and U.K. politics, I wouldn’t expect you to realise how gravely unjust that statement is.

lol, still waiting for someone to show me why I'm wrong.

But as you said, we'll see soon enough.
I wonder how much Sturgeon will sell her "country" out for. I wonder how much Boris is willing to offer.

 

[Spizz]

lol, still waiting for someone to show me why I'm wrong.

But as you said, we'll see soon enough.
I wonder how much Sturgeon will sell her "country" out for. I wonder how much Boris is willing to offer.

Clueless.

 

[Vorastra]

Clueless.

It worked with Arlene Foster, now didn't it.
2 billion I think it was.