The Brexit Thread

[Vorastra]

You do know how democracy works, right?

That's not democracy. Calling votes constantly until you get the answer you want and then run off with the bag, is not democracy. It's malicious politicisation.

OK. You vote to leave. But now I want to hold referendums indefinitely until I get the answer I want instead, before you leave.

Is this now democracy too?

Once in a lifetime. Want to hold a referendum again in 70 years? No problem.

 

[JayM]

Remember when the 2014 referendum was once in a lifetime, who'd have thought a lifetime was less than 10 years.

Actually, it was billed as once in a generation, not once in a lifetime. At the time the big selling point of remaining was retaining EU membership. From that perspective, I don't see why they shouldn't have another referendum.

However, now isn't the right time. The polls show roughly 50% support (and most recently, even slightly less than that), and they should only have one when polls show a clear lead for leaving the UK. Leaving on the back of a 50.1% vote is going to lead to a lot of problems, whereas if 60%+ vote for it, most people will accept that as a clear mandate and move on with their lives.

Current support for the union is being driven by the EU's ridiculous vaccine politics and the fact that the UK appears to be getting back to normality faster than most of Europe. After the pandemic and the harsh realities of Brexit set in, I see a swing in support for independence. The SNP also needs to step up and do a better job of selling independence - banging on the "we hate Tories" and "we want EU membership" drums will not get them over the line.

 

[Spizz]

That's not democracy. Calling votes constantly until you get the answer you want and then run off with the bag, is not democracy. It's malicious politicisation.

OK. You vote to leave. But now I want to hold referendums infinitely until I get the answer I want instead, before you leave.

Is this now democracy too?

Before I answer, I want you to know that I think there should not be a referendum and the SNP should be concentrating on running the country.

HOWEVER, the SNP are a party with independence as their core policy. It’s right there in the name.

And having just won a resounding victory in the Scottish elections, they have in my opinion been given a mandate by the Scottish people to pursue that policy and present another referendum to the country.

I might not agree with it, but that’s democracy. Or why do you think people are voting for the SCOTTISH NATIONAL Party.

 

[Vorastra]

Actually, it was billed as once in a generation, not once in a lifetime.

You are very correct.

What would be a generation? 20 years? 30 years?

 

[Spizz]

You are very correct.

What would be a generation? 20 years? 30 years?

Do you think a politicians sound bite should become an unbroken vow held over a whole country?

 

[Vorastra]

And having just won a resounding victory in the Scottish elections, they have in my opinion been given a mandate by the Scottish people to pursue that policy and present another referendum to the country.

You've inferred a lot.
In no way is it a mandate. It literally isn't.

The SNP got 47.7% of the vote. They couldn't even get a hard-majority.
The best case scenario, the most generous interpretation imaginable, you can extract from that is you'd get 47.7% from the referendum.

 

[JayM]

You are very correct.

What would be a generation? 20 years? 30 years?

The point is, it doesn't really matter. If they're going to leave in 13 years, they may as well leave now if there's a mandate for it. Right now there isn't one, but if the polls head towards 60%, I don't think the Tories would stand in the way of another referendum. Letting Scotland leave will give them unfettered power for decades - the pro union stance is purely for show.

 

[Vorastra]

Do you think a politicians sound bite should become an unbroken vow held over a whole country?

You know it was much more than just a sound bite.

 

[Vorastra]

if there's a mandate for it. Right now there isn't one,

I make this point above.

 

[JayM]

I make this point above.

The Green party (also pro-independence) got nearly 10% of the vote, so that changes the equation substantially. Purely from a polling perspective, the support isn't there yet, but if/when it is, they should be allowed a referendum.

 

[Vorastra]

The Green party (also pro-independence) got nearly 10% of the vote, so that changes the equation substantially. Purely from a polling perspective, the support isn't there yet, but if/when it is, they should be allowed a referendum.

I was referencing his extrapolation of a mandate purely from the minority vote the SNP attained. Greens were never part of the conversation.

 

[Spizz]

You've inferred a lot.
In no way is it a mandate. It literally isn't.

The SNP got 47.7% of the vote. They couldn't even get a hard-majority.
The best case scenario, the most generous interpretation imaginable, you can extract from that is you'd get 47.7% from the referendum.

Possibly. And why I think a referendum should not be on the cards just now. But again, the SNP are the SNP and they think it should be and having been voted back into power, they will. Taking Brexit into context and the lies sold in the last referendum, maybe they have a point. So maybe they should ask the people to decide?

 

[Vorastra]

So maybe they should ask the people to decide?

In a few decades.

 

[Spizz]

I was referencing his extrapolation of a mandate purely from the minority vote the SNP attained. Greens were never part of the conversation.

But the Greens also promote independence. Is that a majority now?

 

[Spizz]

In a few decades.

How many decades and who should decide?

 

[Cray]

Before I answer, I want you to know that I think there should not be a referendum and the SNP should be concentrating on running the country.

HOWEVER, the SNP are a party with independence as their core policy. It’s right there in the name.

And having just won a resounding victory in the Scottish elections, they have in my opinion been given a mandate by the Scottish people to pursue that policy and present another referendum to the country.

I might not agree with it, but that’s democracy. Or why do you think people are voting for the SCOTTISH NATIONAL Party.

From my point of view the Scots and the rest of the UK would be worse off apart.(much the same as the UK is worse off apart from the EU) But I cannot reconcile the idea of people saying that the UK has the absolute right to leave the EU (they do and did) but the Scots don't have the same right to leave the UK.

 

[Spizz]

From my point of view the Scots and the rest of the UK would be worse off apart.(much the same as the UK is worse off apart from the EU) But I cannot reconcile the idea of people saying that the UK has the absolute right to leave the UK (they do and did) but the Scots don't have the same right to leave the UK.

The U.K. leave Europe you mean? And yes, you are spot on.

 

[Cray]

The U.K. leave Europe you mean?

Sorry, yes, finger trouble

And yes, you are spot on.

 

[Vorastra]

How many decades and who should decide?

Whenever Westminster decides to as is literally the law.
You're lucky you're allowed to at all.

 

[Cray]

Whenever Westminster decides to as is literally the law.
You're lucky you're allowed to at all.

Spoken like a true dictator...